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Hypothetical: 2 Revel F208s vs 2 Revel F206s and 2 SVS PB-2000s

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#1
I wanted to pose this as a thought experiment: if someone would have a fixed budget around ~$5000, which would likely lead to a preferable outcome: 2 Revel F208s at $5000, or 2 Revel F206s plus 2 SVS PB-2000s at $5100? What would be the contextual factors that might make the decision tilt one way or another (music vs movies, room acoustics, etc)? And what's the supporting evidence for either scenario?

Edit: Oh, and feel free to substitute your own choice of $700-$800 sub in the hypothetical
 
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amirm

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#2
With a subwoofer, you are adding another "way" to the speaker. So you better know what you are doing. You would need proper crossovers, placement and DSP. If you get all of that right, you will have a better product. If not, the bass is going to intrude at times making it sound less optimal.
 

FrantzM

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#3
With a subwoofer, you are adding another "way" to the speaker. So you better know what you are doing. You would need proper crossovers, placement and DSP. If you get all of that right, you will have a better product. If not, the bass is going to intrude at times making it sound less optimal.
Can I "like" twice?

I would add that for this to work really well you will need a crossover/DSP. Something like the miniDSP 4x10 HD and a uMIK1... I can't fathom how anyone can make this work without measurements.... So your total would increase by $800 ( MiniDSP @ $500 + Umik @ $100 + Various Cables and adapters $200....) , to $6000 . The value of your time needs to be added to this cost as it will take you hours of learning and of experimenting ...

If you manage to make this work as it should. You would then have a speaker system surpassing most pair of speakers around ...

I am assuming your sources to be digital...

I am interested in this discussion. This is the way I will certainly take. I am a firm believer that the way to the best bass in your home is to use multiple subs. Regardless of the inherent capacity of a pair of speakers, adding subs is the best way to have smooth and abundant bass in the home ...
 
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#4
Can I "like" twice?

I would add that for this to work really well you will need a crossover/DSP. Something like the miniDSP 4x10 HD and a uMIK1... I can't fathom how anyone can make this work without measurements.... So your total would increase by $800 ( MiniDSP @ $500 + Umik @ $100 + Various Cables and adapters $200....) , to $6000 . The value of your time needs to be added to this cost as it will take you hours of learning and of experimenting ...

If you manage to make this work as it should. You would then have a speaker system surpassing most pair of speakers around ...

I am assuming your sources to be digital...

I am interested in this discussion. This is the way I will certainly take. I am a firm believer that the way to the best bass in your home is to use multiple subs. Regardless of the inherent capacity of a pair of speakers, adding subs is the best way to have smooth and abundant bass in the home ...
Yeah, these are good points. To play devil’s advocate a bit though:

1. Would the benefit of room equalization not also apply to the bass and room modes of the F208s, too? In fact, would it maybe even be of more importance in that scenario because there is typically less options for placement of full range floor standers than 2 subs?

2. Is perfect the enemy of good here? I think there is a lot of work involved in getting perfect bass management and room correction, but how much work is there involved in getting “good enough” bass management and room correction such that the 2 subs scenario has a significant positive impact and clearly wins vs the 2 floorstander situation (which is also very unlikely to be perfect)?

I’ve noticed that standards are significantly higher here for bass management than a lot of other places like Audioholics; I’m pretty naive but I wonder if it’s justified (as opposed to just settling for a “good enough” approach and then using that to justify getting the subs).

For example, if you had a EQ that has some consumer room equalization and crossover functionality, and two subs, is that going to be that bad relative to no subs? My anecdotal experience is that it is significantly better than no subs but I have no point of comparison to a perfect bass management set up. So in my case, I already needed the AVR, the room eq came free with that, and I had to buy a $20 mobile app to adjust the target curve to fit the harman target and my own personal taste/perception of my room. (Oh yeah, I had to do some “sub crawling” to evaluate the difference between a couple placement options I had, heh)
 

DonH56

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#5
Room modes occur at fixed places in the room. To get out of nulls you have to move the MLP, resize the room, or place sub(s) to counter the modes. Independent subs allow you to place them for the smoothest in-room bass response. Rarely is the best place for the mains for imaging and such the best place for bass. And extremely rare are mains that can handle deep bass without high distortion.

Most AVRs do a good job integrating subs, though you may have to tweak a bit. There are also a number of stand-alone bass processors to do the job, from miniDSP to Antimode to high-end processors. You do need to be able to adjust the phase at the crossover point for proper integration, either in the source (AVR/AVP/preamp/whatever), external unit (miniDSP, Antimode, etc.), or sub itself (e.g. my subs have continuous phase control, some others have built-in DSP).

The F206 is -3 dB at 42 Hz, F208 is -3 dB at 31 Hz, and any decent sub will go below 20 Hz. With an 80 Hz crossover you have one octave margin above the F206's corner frequency to handle the transition region and subs to handle two more octaves or more, with the flexibility of placing the subs to optimize the bass response. I'd get the F206's and subs.

OK, let's get real, I'd save and get F208's and subs... :)
 
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FrantzM

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#6
Yeah, these are good points. To play devil’s advocate a bit though:

1. Would the benefit of room equalization not also apply to the bass and room modes of the F208s, too? In fact, would it maybe even be of more importance in that scenario because there is typically less options for placement of full range floor standers than 2 subs?

2. Is perfect the enemy of good here? I think there is a lot of work involved in getting perfect bass management and room correction, but how much work is there involved in getting “good enough” bass management and room correction such that the 2 subs scenario has a significant positive impact and clearly wins vs the 2 floorstander situation (which is also very unlikely to be perfect)?

I’ve noticed that standards are significantly higher here for bass management than a lot of other places like Audioholics; I’m pretty naive but I wonder if it’s justified (as opposed to just settling for a “good enough” approach and then using that to justify getting the subs).

For example, if you had a EQ that has some consumer room equalization and crossover functionality, and two subs, is that going to be that bad relative to no subs? My anecdotal experience is that it is significantly better than no subs but I have no point of comparison to a perfect bass management set up. So in my case, I already needed the AVR, the room eq came free with that, and I had to buy a $20 mobile app to adjust the target curve to fit the harman target and my own personal taste/perception of my room. (Oh yeah, I had to do some “sub crawling” to evaluate the difference between a couple placement options I had, heh)
Please re-read Don post Here

I would add to his. The presence of more subs allow a smoother bass. You gain both in Quality and quantity. I am, like Don I believe , partial to limiting the amount of bass that reaches a loudspeaker. In spite of the decent bass performance of the F206, it would be beneficial to cross it with a smooth slope , say, 80 Hz , 12 dB per octave and leave the bass duties to the subwoofers. Their numbers, we are talking more than 2, translate in lower THD and higher output... Even if you are not a basshead what you usually gain is reduced THD in the lows since the (multiple) subwoofers operates in their most linear region, mot of the time. Plus you reduce peaks and valleys and that, before any room correction or EQ... Going further with EQ or DRC would provide even better, smoother response. under 300 Hz... I believe in leaving the rest of the spectrum alone ...
 
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GrimSurfer

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#7
Generally speaking, drivers produce the greatest distortion at high excursion levels. So while you can certainly get mains that operate in the sub-bass region, the excursion needed to get a smaller cone "there" doesn't do any favors for SQ.

Large drivers, such as subs, also don't do higher frequencies well because the combined mass of the cone and motors make control rather difficult and test the mechanical limits of the materials used in their construction.

As Don said, the ideal placement of subs is rarely the same as for the mains. So having separate satellites/bookshelf speakers and subs provide a great deal of flexibility wrt room aesthetics and SQ. (Usually, the choice is room aesthetics OR sound quality)

Under this scenario, a set of satellite/bookshelf speakers nominally capable of sub-bass are OK... provided that crossovers never actually let them operate this low. Leave this heavy work to the subs and their narrower (~18-60 Hz) sweet spot. This allows the satellites/bookshelf speakers to operate closer to the sweet spot that cone size, baffle, and cabinet volume of their design better support.

Much has been written about the relative merits of ported vs sealed subs and satellites. Once you get past the issue of the relative extremes of bass extension, there's not all that much to be gained with ported designs wrt music reproduction. Musical instruments' frequencies bottom-out at around 31 Hz IIRC, unless we're talking unusually large pipe organs (of which few exist and even fewer are used in musical production).

Sound FX are a different matter altogether.

FWIW.
 
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