Hypex nCore vs Class A amps

[Julf]

I fail to see why one would want to put things in the signal chain that makes things worse (distortion wise). I think introducing the "tube sound" is trying to address a problem that doesn't exist. With today's ultra low distortion DACs and Amps, you can peel away layers and get very close to the mix intended and heard in the studio. If you are not happy with this result, you should probably reconsider your speakers (ie upgrading, adding subs, addressing room nodes with dsp). Adding tubey distortion seems a very blunt and unsophisticated way to change the sound with unpredictable results. IMHO, going in the wrong direction, man.

I guess some people add salt and ketchup to every dish even at at a michelin star restaurant, and wear pink glasses going to an art museum...

 

[levimax]

I fail to see why one would want to put things in the signal chain that makes things worse (distortion wise). I think introducing the "tube sound" is trying to address a problem that doesn't exist. With today's ultra low distortion DACs and Amps, you can peel away layers and get very close to the mix intended and heard in the studio. If you are not happy with this result, you should probably reconsider your speakers (ie upgrading, adding subs, addressing room nodes with dsp). Adding tubey distortion seems a very blunt and unsophisticated way to change the sound with unpredictable results. IMHO, going in the wrong direction, man.

People have a desire for "magic" or "something special" in their lives (I know I do). Antique glowing tubes or to a lesser extent expensive and inefficient antiquated designs like Class A can address this need when it comes to listening to recorded music. Whether or not it really sounds any different is not the point.

 

[NTK]

...

You are correct in that if I don't normalize the FFT plot, the side lobes strengths are the same regardless of the duty cycle of the tone bursts. Since the spectral leaks came from the entrance and exit transitions the bursts, and they all have 1 entrance and 1 exit, the leaked energies should be the same.

My problem was I took your words on their audibility. Thus, I created a WAV file of 7 of these tone bursts using your original parameters (sampling rate 192 kHz, sine wave of frequency 48 kHz). The WAV file is a series of 1 second segments. Segment 1 is 75% duty cycle, 2 is 20%, 3 is 10%, 4 is 5%, 5 is 1%, 6 is 0.1%, and the last segment is one single positive pulse. Attached is the zipped WAV file.

Clicks are clearly audible in all entrance and exit transitions for all of the bursts, when they are sufficiently far apart that our ears can separate them.

Anyway, why are we having this discussion in this thread? Don't we know the best performing class-D amps (e.g. Hypex and Purifi) are analog amps?

Got any experimental results yet?

How did I get suckered into doing the experiment

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

I fail to see why one would want to put things in the signal chain that makes things worse (distortion wise). I think introducing the "tube sound" is trying to address a problem that doesn't exist. With today's ultra low distortion DACs and Amps, you can peel away layers and get very close to the mix intended and heard in the studio. If you are not happy with this result, you should probably reconsider your speakers (ie upgrading, adding subs, addressing room nodes with dsp). Adding tubey distortion seems a very blunt and unsophisticated way to change the sound with unpredictable results. IMHO, going in the wrong direction, man.

I came to try the tube plugin, i just coloration and distortion... i didn't like the result and then i tryed the Apo Parametric Equalizer with a really cheap microphone and then i measure the room, i saw my r300 had a little 3db more in ~6khz and the rest was pretty flatt, i use my speakers in near~mid field.


To be honest i like the sound of my system but i wanted to try another thing without spend money and that thing catched my atenttion but and in the end i didn't like it, i prefer measure my room all the day

i like the result of -3db in 6khz~, well i think the ability of equalizer the speakers with microphone in the room is very usefull, yes.

 

[Mulder]

I can try this with fobar?!?

No. foobar2000 is 32 bits only. You need a player able to handle 64 bit. I tried it with jRiver. Worked smooth without problems.
Otherwise, to use VST-plugins in foobar, you need Foobar2000 VST 2.4 adapter. https://windowsreport.com/install-foobar-vst-plugin/

 

[Mulder]

I fail to see why one would want to put things in the signal chain that makes things worse (distortion wise). I think introducing the "tube sound" is trying to address a problem that doesn't exist. With today's ultra low distortion DACs and Amps, you can peel away layers and get very close to the mix intended and heard in the studio. If you are not happy with this result, you should probably reconsider your speakers (ie upgrading, adding subs, addressing room nodes with dsp). Adding tubey distortion seems a very blunt and unsophisticated way to change the sound with unpredictable results. IMHO, going in the wrong direction, man.

Exactly, quite right. As you write, you can remove layers and get very close to the mix. If that was how it sounded in the studio is another matter. Another thing is that many recordings do not actually sound very good. This also reveals by today's equipment quite relentlessly. Purely subjective, from a euphonic perspective, adding a little bit of distortion of the right kind - much like a tube amp - can add a layer of good sound. Ideally, with a good recording, distortion adds nothing. On the contrary. But as I said. Not all recordings are good recordings. And apart from everything else. It's fun to experiment.

 

[levimax]

This thread originally was about Class A amps vs Hypex and I have never seen claims that Class A sounds better because it adds distortion but rather because the design inherently eliminates crossover distortion. I was under the impression that by biasing and feedback that crossover distortion has been a solved issue for audio amps but then I see this put out by Benchmark https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/131919495-ahb2-crossover-distortion-measurements and am not sure what to make of it. Are the Benchmark's claims legit about crossover distortion being a bug a boo for push pull amps or is it just over magnified marketing scare tactics?

 

[SIY]

This thread originally was about Class A amps vs Hypex and I have never seen claims that Class A sounds better because it adds distortion but rather because the design inherently eliminates crossover distortion. I was under the impression that by biasing and feedback that crossover distortion has been a solved issue for audio amps but then I see this put out by Benchmark https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/131919495-ahb2-crossover-distortion-measurements and am not sure what to make of it. Are the Benchmark's claims legit about crossover distortion being a bug a boo for push pull amps or is it just over magnified marketing scare tactics?

The latter.

 

[boXem]

This thread originally was about Class A amps vs Hypex and I have never seen claims that Class A sounds better because it adds distortion but rather because the design inherently eliminates crossover distortion. I was under the impression that by biasing and feedback that crossover distortion has been a solved issue for audio amps but then I see this put out by Benchmark https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/131919495-ahb2-crossover-distortion-measurements and am not sure what to make of it. Are the Benchmark's claims legit about crossover distortion being a bug a boo for push pull amps or is it just over magnified marketing scare tactics?

I won't comment the Benchmark claims, just say that crossover distortion is a class AB thing that neither class A or D suffer from anyhow.

 

[Chromatischism]

I'm not sure but I found these two papers by Bruno:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/3000478_Digital_audio's_final_frontier

 

[boXem]

All the papers Bruno wrote during his time at Hypex are here: https://www.hypex.nl/p/application-notes-white-papers/
One paper is of particular interest for the understanding of the basic topology behind UcD, nCore and Eigentakt: https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES118BP_Simple_self-oscillating_class D_amplifier.pdf . The schematic page 7 can be entered in a spice simulator to observe the behavior of such an amplifier.

 

[levimax]

I won't comment the Benchmark claims, just say that crossover distortion is a class AB thing that neither class A or D suffer from anyhow.

Since Class A and Class D don't need to worry about crossover distortion and Benchmark and many others have solved the issue with Class AB I don't think I am going to worry about it. Bruno's white papers are impressive reading.

 

[A800]

I won't comment the Benchmark claims, just say that crossover distortion is a class AB thing that neither class A or D suffer from anyhow.

Class D suffers also from crossover distortion dependent on the required deadtime but usually not to the extend found in class AB amps.

 

[Julf]

Class D suffers also from crossover distortion dependent on the required deadtime but usually not to the extend found in class AB amps.

I would not call the class D switching distortion "crossover distortion".

 

[A800]

I would not call the class D switching distortion "crossover distortion".

Why not?

 

[Julf]

Why not?

Different mechanism, different effect.

 

[boXem]

Why not?

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES124BP_A_universal_grammar of class_D.pdf
dead time distortion page 20 to 22
crossover distortion page 23

 

[A800]

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_AES124BP_A_universal_grammar of class_D.pdf
dead time distortion page 20 to 22
crossover distortion page 23

Thanks.

 

[hyfynut]

Hi,
The main difference I would mention would be: Class AB are quieter than Class D.
It's just an hypothesis. What do you think?

True of older and lesser designs prob. Not the new breed of digital amplifier.

 

[hyfynut]

Actually it is the exact opposite. Class D has the least hiss of all (well, except Benchmark's THX class AB ).

Typical class D sound is very strong dynamics, absolute silence, and because of that more perception of reverb tails and long decays. Tonality and overall resolution varies with implementation, so it cannot be generalized imo.

Now some people might not get used to the dynamic and clean bass of class D if they are coming from a well known class AB amplifier. It takes some time to get used to it I guess.

I have a friend who went back from NCore NC500 to an Accuphase class A amp, and have known people going from Pass amps to NCore, so there are all kinds of preferences.

Word. Preference often plays a part. The Audio Research amps measure poorly here but the 2 different models I heard ( both solid state ) sounded intoxicating. They were lush and detailed. I’m looking forward to trying out an ncore design.