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Hypex NC502MP NCore Amplifier 500Wx4 compatability with AVR

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Grierts

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Doing the maths, the NC502MP has 2.35V sensitivity to get 500W into 4 ohm speakers

Or it's 2.77V sensitivity to get 350W into 8 ohm speakers.

If you can output 2V (peak RMS), and that seems most likely, then you would be able to put 360W into 4 ohm, or 180W into 8 ohm.

Looked at another way, you'd be 1.4dB (4 ohm) or 2.8dB (8 ohm) down on the amplifier's peak output. You'd be getting some benefit over the NC252MP, but not the full extra benefit.

Man that sounds Like I am wasting $1k on minimal improvements.

Ill probably just cancel the order.

Any other amps, that you all could recommend?
 

KMM

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I run a a similar Onkyo RZ 740 through a double mono Audiophonics Hypex NC252 directly from the pre-outs for front speakers and I have plenty of SPL from my Canton 896.2. Wouldn't worry about it.
 

KMO

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So the subwoofer output would be able to output 10 Vrms?
Maybe? Subwoofer analogue levels are real problem area, with a lot of confusion on how to handle the 15dB of nominal extra headroom, so it's quite possible they've deliberately overspecced that.

Or maybe they've managed to get confused where 0 is and there's no real difference between the channels?

Basically, the whole LFE 10dB offset adds a whole level of confusion.

But for the normal outputs, if you see "200mV" listed, it can only plausibly be referring to 0dBVU, not 0dBFS.

Unless you think the thing is running with 49dB gain internal amplifiers, rather than the conventional 29dB used in AVRs.
 

TheBatsEar

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NC252MP can do 250W into 4 ohm
But only at 2.35V, as i understand it, we suspect the AVR can't muster that strength and you would be a bit below 250W again?
 

KMO

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Man that sounds Like I am wasting $1k on minimal improvements.

Ill probably just cancel the order.

Any other amps, that you all could recommend?
Well, what's your current amp? I'm saying you won't get much benefit over the NC502MP's smaller sibling.
 

TheBatsEar

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Any other amps, that you all could recommend?
I would try another angle. Consider your room, your speakers sensitivity, the max SPL you want to reach, then decide which amp is needed.

Start with sensitivity of the speakers, then calculate how loud that would be at your listening postition.
 

KMO

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But only at 2.35V, as i understand it, we suspect the AVR can't muster that strength and you would be a bit below 250W again?
2.35V was for max power from a NC502MP - 500W into 4 ohms.

The NC252MP has the same gain, so to get its maximum 250W into 4 ohms, you need correspondingly less voltage - 1.66V.

NC502MP is problematic because it has higher power without higher gain. Needs more input.
 

TheBatsEar

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2.35V was for max power from a NC502MP - 500W into 4 ohms.

The NC252MP has the same gain, so to get its maximum 250W into 4 ohms, you need correspondingly less voltage - 1.66V.

NC502MP is problematic because it has higher power without higher gain. Needs more input.
Got it, thanks.

Anyway, here are some relationships between distance and SPL in dB and watts as well. Maybe that can help OP to answer his question.
 

KMO

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I would try another angle. Consider your room, your speakers sensitivity, the max SPL you want to reach, then decide which amp is needed.

Start with sensitivity of the speakers, then calculate how loud that would be at your listening postition.

Well, if you were thinking that the external power amp will increase volume, it usually won't.

AVRs have high-gain internal amps - 29dB.

If attaching an external amp with less than 29dB gain (and the Ncores are 25.6dB), then you will struggle to achieve louder peak output. The pre-amp stages of the AVR won't be able to be turned up enough to get that high power out of them.

But you're not normally attaching an external amp simply to get higher peak volume, you're looking at improving things like distortion at the same level, or being able to get the nominal peak power from all channels at once (AVRs often struggle at that).

I assume OP hasn't turned his AVR up to max with internal amps and decided "I need this to be louder"...
 

KMO

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Lot of words above, so let's throw this AVR gain diagram (older, not the OP's, but probably still similar) in to make things clearer. :cool:

AVRfront.PNG

Illustrates the aforementioned 20dB difference between the dBVU and dBFS scales, if you look closely. You can see the respective 200mV and 2V for them.

That shows 159mV as its pre-out level, due to a 2dB attentuation, which would then correspond to 1.6V peak RMS using the same assumptions I made above. I guess the Integra doesn't have that, leading to its nominal 200mV / 2V peak, same as input.
 
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OP
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Well, what's your current amp? I'm saying you won't get much benefit over the NC502MP's smaller sibling.
No amp currently.

Everything running through the AVR.

Wanted the amp to give my avr some headroom on power, and if I ever upgraded my speakers in the future to something more power hungry, I would already be good.

I really wanted to see if there was truly more Clarity at lower listening levels. Also from time to time I do like to play my music loud as well !!!

I just ordered the amp so I have time to cancel. VtV told me 10 days wait time. Which is far shorter than buckeyes june/July deadline.


So is my AVRs preouts just underpowered ? Or are you guys not even using avrs ?
 
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Doing the maths, the NC502MP has 2.35V sensitivity to get 500W into 4 ohm speakers

Or it's 2.77V sensitivity to get 350W into 8 ohm speakers.

If you can output 2V (peak RMS), and that seems most likely, then you would be able to put 360W into 4 ohm, or 180W into 8 ohm.

Looked at another way, you'd be 1.4dB (4 ohm) or 2.8dB (8 ohm) down on the amplifier's peak output. You'd be getting some benefit over the NC252MP, but not the full extra benefit. You benefit more if you have low-impedance speakers.

(NC252MP can do 250W into 4 ohm, or 150W into 8 ohm, and you would be able to fully utilise its power).
And this makes sense to me!!!

Looking at the Emotiva basx A3
Power Output (ALL channels driven):
- 140 watts RMS per channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD < 0.1%; into 8 Ohms.
- 200 watts RMS per channel; 1 kHz; THD < 1%; into 4 Ohms
- Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1.25 V.

And the XPA-DR3​

Power Output (all three channels driven):
-450 watts RMS, per channel, into 8 Ohms, at <0.1% THD.
- 600 watts RMS, per channel, into 4 Ohms, at <0.1% THD.
- Input Sensitivity (for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 2.0 V.


It appears that the basx can get me similar results to the NC502MP for half the cost.$500

But my original goal was 350w minimum per each channel.

140w/180w is not going to make much of a difference.
 

KMO

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So is my AVRs preouts just underpowered ? Or are you guys just using stronger preamps ?
No, your AVR is pretty typical. And AVRs generally have pre-outs lower than hi-fi gear or DACs because of their high-gain integrated amps.

And the NC502MP is a pretty high-powered amp with a lower-than-AVR gain, so it's just not an ideal fit.

Now, I suspect that in practice you will see no problem. It will go louder than you want to go, and I suspect that the AVR will manage more than my estimated 2V. Just as Denons manage more than 1.6V in practice, despite the 159mV shown in that diagram.

A lot of people here will be using DACs or other hi-fi gear that can comfortably drive 4V. Gain in the 20-26dB range is conventional in non-AVR devices.

I'm not sure why AVRs ended up with higher-gain amp stages...

Anyway, even a NC252MP should be a power boost, as the power ratings for Hypex-based amps are true per-channel ratings. You can hit that with every channel simultaneously.

The power ratings on that receiver are for 2 channels, and you can be confident that will not be achieved on all channels. They don't have the power supplies to be able to do that.

I believe it's related to the Onkyo TX-RZ50? In which case Amir's tests here may show what it can do. I'll need to read it...

 
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No, your AVR is pretty typical. And AVRs generally have pre-outs lower than hi-fi gear or DACs because of their high-gain integrated amps.

And the NC502MP is a pretty high-powered amp with a lower-than-AVR gain, so it's just not an ideal fit.

Now, I suspect that in practice you will see no problem. It will go louder than you want to go, and I suspect that the AVR will manage more than my estimated 2V. Just as Denons manage more than 1.6V in practice, despite the 159mV shown in that diagram.

A lot of people here will be using DACs or other hi-fi gear that can comfortably drive 4V. Gain in the 20-26dB range is conventional in non-AVR devices.

I'm not sure why AVRs ended up with higher-gain amp stages...

Anyway, even a NC252MP should be a power boost, as the power ratings for Hypex-based amps are true per-channel ratings. You can hit that with every channel simultaneously.

The power ratings on that receiver are for 2 channels, and you can be confident that will not be achieved on all channels. They don't have the power supplies to be able to do that.

I believe it's related to the Onkyo TX-RZ50? In which case Amir's tests here may show what it can do. I'll need to read it...

To my understanding the new ONKYO/INTEGRA/PIONEER AVRS are all made in the same factory.

There is just slight differences between them. But the hardware is all very similar.

(They all have 3 different trim levels. Each trim lever for each company being damm near identical in specs.)

Does amir measure the preouts ??

Let me take a look as well
 
OP
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Grierts

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No, your AVR is pretty typical. And AVRs generally have pre-outs lower than hi-fi gear or DACs because of their high-gain integrated amps.

And the NC502MP is a pretty high-powered amp with a lower-than-AVR gain, so it's just not an ideal fit.

Now, I suspect that in practice you will see no problem. It will go louder than you want to go, and I suspect that the AVR will manage more than my estimated 2V. Just as Denons manage more than 1.6V in practice, despite the 159mV shown in that diagram.

A lot of people here will be using DACs or other hi-fi gear that can comfortably drive 4V. Gain in the 20-26dB range is conventional in non-AVR devices.

I'm not sure why AVRs ended up with higher-gain amp stages...

Anyway, even a NC252MP should be a power boost, as the power ratings for Hypex-based amps are true per-channel ratings. You can hit that with every channel simultaneously.

The power ratings on that receiver are for 2 channels, and you can be confident that will not be achieved on all channels. They don't have the power supplies to be able to do that.

I believe it's related to the Onkyo TX-RZ50? In which case Amir's tests here may show what it can do. I'll need to read it...

Is this what we are looking for ?
 

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KMO

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Yes, that makes sense. He has no problems doing the basic pre-out tests at 2V, and finds it goes up to 3.5V before clipping. And I find that plausible given the 200mV nominal 0dBVU level. It means they provided headroom up to +25dBVU, similar to what I know others do.

Shame the amp tests didn't get completed, so we don't have a proper indication of your current power.
 
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Yes, that makes sense. He has no problems doing the basic pre-out tests at 2V, and finds it goes up to 3.5V before clipping. And I find that plausible given the 200mV nominal 0dBVU level. It means they provided headroom up to +25dBVU, similar to what I know others do.

Shame the amp tests didn't get completed, so we don't have a proper indication of your current power.
Found this useful thread


2 people said they both talked to Integra customer support about the preout output.

1 person was told, 1v max

Another was told 2v max.

Interesting....
 

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Yeah, that spec is weird. That's why I stopped at posting the pics from the owners manual pdf.

From the Drx3.4 owners manual


Input Sensitivity and Impedance:

200 mV/47 kΩ (LINE(RCA)),
3.5 mV/47 kΩ (PHONO MM)

Rated RCA Output Level and Impedance

PRE OUT : 1 V/470 Ω
LINE OUT (ZONE 2/ZONE B) : 200 mV/2.2 kΩ
LINE OUT (ZONE 3) : 200 mV/470 Ω
 

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So can somebody verify if I am understanding this required VRMS for amps

The NC500OEM requires 10.73vrms to be fully powered at 4ohms

The 1ET400A / Purifi-Audio
Requires 9.6VRMS to be fully powered at 4ohms

The PASCAL L-PRO2S requires 3.5V
for full output voltage swing

Is this correct ???
 

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KMO

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That seems correct for the NC500 and 1ET400A. They've low-gain modules. A consumer amp released using them would normally have an op-amp buffer stage adding extra gain, so you don't have to actually get that from your pre-amp. The just-reviewed Audiophonics HPA-S400ET is an example.

That looks like a peak-to-peak voltage for the Pascal, so is it more like 2.5V RMS? Could be wrong though.
 
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