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Hyperion APR-16 AV Processor Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Can it also be a subsonic digital HP filter?
Maybe at 0.1 or 1 Hz? So really high FS/F-3dB ratio.
Just speculating
No great loss. The only real use case for a residential Dante implementation is distributed audio across multiple rooms (or perhaps from a home to a guest house or pool house), and that can be handled more effectively through a wireless networking protocol like Sonos, Airplay, etc., or through Ethernet via Roon. Dante is definitely useful for IP transmission of distributed audio in a commercial setting but there are better, more robust, and more user-friendly options for residential implementations, in my opinion.
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I disagree. IMO the best home use case for Dante and similar is to provide however many channels needed from an AVP to a remote amp rack in an immersive system.
AD/DA conversions aside, a single cat6 run is much easier, cheaper, and faster than, say, the 16-channel Mogami analog snake cable terminated with Neutrik XLR ends we use. It’s also a no-brainer to build in redundancy with cat6, because it’s thin and cheap. Routing multiple inch thick snakes between walls and floors is expensive and hard. (Yes, there are audio-over-cat6 solutions, but still for 16ch that’s 4 runs of cat6.)
For multiroom, who’s going to route audio through the AVP anyway? That’s what AirPlay is for. So 2-channel Dante on an AVP is IMO useless and dumb.
Agreed about the two channel implementation, that was exactly my point. I just don’t see a good use case for consumer Dante implementations, unless you are talking about amplifiers being far, far away from the pre/pro. And like you said, you then have the added cost/complexity of first converting the analog signals to digital, then running them through an interface running the Dante protocol (what do they call it? A virtual sound card?), outputting through Ethernet, and then on the receiving end, running them through another Dante interface, sending the output through multiple DACs, and then sending the analog output to the amplifiers? And then running the analog speaker outputs all the way back to the listening room(s)?
I just don’t see a good residential use case for Dante in a home theater application. Maybe it’s so an integrator can make money designing an overly complicated system to achieve what is a simple goal.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #126
Yes, I am in full communication with them and they are very supportive and investigating.
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I don't think that's right.
With analog cabling you will have the extra DA/AD conversion if your amps have built in DSP. I'm presuming that a Dante AVP would be paired with amps that have digital inputs.
As I understand Dante (which could be wrong) the digital signal from the AVP would just sent over the Dante line and routed to amps with Dante inputs (daisy chained or a switch I guess). So the signal would stay digital until the final conversion. For example, in my particular use case it would go like this: AVP -Dante cat 6-> BSS BLU-DA (convert Dante to Harman Blu-Link) - -Blu-Link-> amps. So 1 cable from AVP to amp rack, and easy distribution from there, while avoiding an DA/AD conversion.
If you are going to limit yourself to amps with Dante inputs, then sure—buy amps with Dante inputs. But you still then need to route the analog speaker cables back to the listening room/rooms. So you are going to need to do the same demo and analog cable routing, or if it is new construction, have the same conduit and wire chase installation in your construction plans. I think for residential applications, Dante is just a solution looking for a problem.
I think part of the problem is integrators looking to complicate things in order to justify ongoing maintenance fees. Outsourcing home entertainment to a third party and divesting yourself of any control over the troubleshooting is just another revenue stream for integrators, who otherwise wouldn’t be making money after an install, because how often do customers decide to scrap their system and have an integrator come back and do an entirely new install? Not too often, I would think. But what do I know.
An ideal solution to all this—IMHO—is to dispense with separate amplification entirely and route signal from the pre-pro to powered monitors.
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This is my first post. I just wanted to let everyone know that the APR16 is supposed to get a firmware update to add full 13 channel Dante. The Hyperion website and the videos on YouTube also pointed it out. So yes right now it is only 2 channel. But it is supposed to be updated in the future.
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Um, I literally just gave you an example where the amps have Blu-Link inputs...
Obviously. But that's the case regardless of how signal gets to the remote amps. Or even non-remote amps.
My point is simply that cat6 is easier to run than large analog snakes, and that it's easier to design in redundancy if basically all the stuff uses the same type of cable and termination.
Does it change the cost? Maybe by a couple hundred bucks, depending on the length of the run, which in the scheme of things is not going to make or break a project. A thousand foot spool of STP cat6A* is like $300, and chances are you're buying the whole spool anyway because when someone's poking holes in your house to add a bunch of cabling you may as well hard wire a lot of internet stuff too. Field terminable RJ45 plugs for STP cable are like 20 bucks each. By contrast, a foot of 16-channel Mogami snake is around 6 bucks, and Neutrik XLR ends are now what, $3-5 each?
*I don't think Dante needs STP cat6. Maybe nothing does. UTP cable is much cheaper and RJ45 ends are basically free. But we decided to go with STP because it should in theory be more immune to noise and can each carry 4 channels of analog balanced audio including ground if needed.
HARD no. Honest question: have you ever personally caused an immersive system to be retrofitted into your home? I ask because I've now done it 3.5 times since 2015 or so, so have developed an idea of what makes sense and what doesn't. Sometimes things that might sound good in theory are disatrously terrible ideas when confronted with reality.
Running low voltage speaker wire is so much easier and cheaper than running electrical. And if you're spending real money for an install it damn well better look good. Power cables poking into 15 different outlets is not that. Low voltage that's completely concealed behind the devices is. And of course you still have to run low-voltage to powered speakers, because they generally don't pull signal out of the sky.
Also. who TF wants to get on a ladder to change a plate amp in height speaker (which may not even be replaceable!) if it breaks, compared to sliding an amp out of a convenient-but-out-of-the-way remote amp rack and putting in a new one?
Devnull
Senior Member
I don't understand why if this is meant for custom installs, i.e. permanent, it's got XLRs. Complete pain in the ass to deal with vs Phoenix style connectors.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #132
It is not for whole house audio but for custom high-end theaters.
I’m excited for both AudioControl and MiniDSP to be making significant forward progress on their respective AVR/AVP offerings.MiniDSP published their own AP IMD measurement for the Tide16, and it's comparable with stereo DACs:
View attachment 537719
No, definitely not. I'll try to find the link. EDIT: Here it is:
Is Tide16 an ODM product? Did you really design everything?
When we announced Tide16, a few people immediately asked whether we were using an ODM—basically, another company owning all the IP while miniDSP just feeds them ideas. Sounds tempting, right? Less work for us… in theory ? But no—Tide16, just ...support.minidsp.com
OP
- Thread Starter
- #135
At least compared to Trinnov, it is a lot cheaper. That extra cost could be put toward projector, speakers, etc.
If you mean a really high-end theater where the price doesn't matter, then it is a matter of whether they are a dealer for Trinnov or not.
Where is the power transformer—in fact, where is the entire power supply circuitry?
Regarding my last proposal—which you gave the hard no—it’s not any harder running Romex for power outlets than running Ethernet or analog power cables.
I’m of the belief that powered monitors solve a myriad of problems present in the separate amp/speaker ecosystem. If I could do it all over again, I would. However, with 4 multichannel and 7 two channel systems in my house, it would be quite an undertaking/expense.
You can see the power input in one of the pictures. There is a shielded vertical PS on one of the sides. This is a processor so I imagine it is a switch mode power supply.
Actually, the unit in question included power amplifiers (look at the speaker taps).
