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Hyperion APR-16 AV Processor Review

Rate this AVP:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 18 8.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 70 32.7%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 82 38.3%
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    Votes: 44 20.6%

  • Total voters
    214
Pardon for being repetitive, analyzing Dirac is not so simple, but we should not let the perfect (testing) get in the way of the good.

My first question continues to be about what’s happening inside Dirac. I’m not asking that they publish their algo or their secret sauce. But they have told us almost nothing about the filters. Telling me you have 97 filters on an Denon and 200 on another brand is about as useful as telling me I have 10” woofers in one speaker and 15” in another. Says nothing about how well implemented the woofers or filters are.

Yes, the target curve is totally subjective, and there are many other user adjustable inputs on Dirac. Not to mention that some room/speaker combos may be much friendlier to Dirac than others. But it would still be useful to see how capable Dirac is at hitting target curves, reducing resonances, etc. And this all can be measured. But understanding that what works great in my room, with my speakers, in my locations, with my room treatments may not present Dirac with the same issues as what works in Amir’s room.

So it’s not easy, it’s somewhat subjective and it’s not perfect. But there is much more we can do than what we’re doing today. Again being repetitive, but in my case a much worse performing Denon 4800H sounded significantly better than a fabulously performing RME DAC. And the RME had impeccable 192khz and DSD compatible two channel 60,000 tap filters with latency you could only live with for music only, not video.

Dirac did a great job in my room. This is why I want to understand it better and understand what hardware it performs best on.
 
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Pardon for being repetitive, analyzing Dirac is not so simple, but we should not let the perfect (testing) get in the way of the good.

My first question continues to be about what’s happening inside Dirac. I’m not asking that they publish their algo or their secret sauce. But they have told us almost nothing about the filters. Telling me you have 97 filters on an Denon and 200 on another brand is about as useful as telling me I have 10” woofers in one speaker and 15” in another. Says nothing about how well implemented the woofers or filters are.

Yes, the target curve is totally subjective, and there are many other user adjustable inputs on Dirac. Not to mention that some room/speaker combos may be much friendlier to Dirac than others. But it would still be useful to see how capable Dirac is at hitting target curves, reducing resonances, etc. And this all can be measured. But understanding that what works great in my room, with my speakers, in my locations, with my room treatments may not present Dirac with the same issues as what works in Amir’s room.

So it’s not easy, it’s somewhat subjective and it’s not perfect. But there is much more we can do than what we’re doing today. Again being repetitive, but in my case a much worse performing Denon 4800H sounded significantly better than a fabulously performing RME DAC. And the RME had impeccable 192khz and DSD compatible two channel 60,000 tap filters with latency you could only live with for music only, not video.

Dirac did a great job in my room. This is why I want to understand it better and understand what hardware it performs best on.
I must be misunderstanding your point because to me, I would just run REW and check all the measurements, obviously not just FR but all available curves and I should be able to see how effective DL, DLBC, ART may be doing. I have not tried ART yet but soon, but I would only try two channel as the PC standalone version I have is for two channels. I do know DL, DLBC works great, more effective vs Audyssey, though Audyssey with app and hours of tweaking could come very close and better in some ways, ARC G is worse though still reasonably effective, can't say much about that though as I don't want to upset their fans.:) So, in my experience, using REW is good enough for me and if ASR can do measurements on how SINAD might be affected that would just be bonus info.
 
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Interestingly, this DSP comparison by Trinnov seems to show that the single ADSP-21593 used in the Denon X3800H and others has slightly more processing power than the 4 x ADSP-21489 used in the StormAudio ISP 32 channel:
View attachment 541383
Trinov ~ antiquated processors take a 2015 motherboard with PCI slots and put several Sound Blaster PCI cards in with XLR soldered. Why does Dolby give them their Intel SDK is beyond me. I guess know they will use Claude to improve this intel C++ build to Rust and Linux lol?
 
UPDATE ON APR-16 AMIR TESTED

Some disclosures: I'm more critical of audio performance than video. I highly value a product that works with an Apple TV, including reliable CEC control. Also important for me is that the Volume Max feature works as I have an adult child with special needs that will turn up the volume past where it's safe for him or my speakers (it does not on the current APR-16, and neither does Trigger In). My setup is very basic with just three sources: Apple TV (used 80% of the time), WiiM Pro Plus to stream Roon via Toslink, and Nvidia Shield for HD immersive audio. I hardly ever use the Shield as I prefer 2 channels for music versus immersive. With the WiiM I use Roon SRC take everything to 48khz for Dirac compatibility. I always have Dirac ART on with a conventional Harmon target +4db bass, -1.5db high treble. Display is Samsung 83" S90C OLED. Speakers are TAD R1 Mk2 front L/R, KEF Reference 2 Center (not Meta), KEF R3 Meta Surround, KEF R8 Meta Middle Height, 2 Perlisten R210s front subs, 2 Rythmik F12SE rear subs, extensive RPG room treatment, 3 Benchmark AHB2 in mono for LCR, VTV amps for surround and height. I don't have test equipment and AB with my prior Denon 4800h is way too much trouble.

So what is the conclusion so far? Subjectively the unit sounds more detailed and halographic than the Denon 4800h, but it is much less reliable on all the features you would expect to work on a product at this price point. AVPro has been responsive addressing the problems, that are mostly firmware related. Their development team is in house in the US and they seem very interested in getting everything working. I understand in a month or so they will be getting more units and they have offered to replace mine with a new one that incorporates some minor tweaks to components (mostly due to sourcing issues per AVPro). And they are testing and developing firmware fixes that will roll out in the coming weeks.

Those of you that want everything to be based on scientific testing will be frustrated by my comments. If that really bothers you, read no further. I got the unit up and running with Dirac ART this week and I wanted it to sound bad. Why? Because all the firmware bugs (and there are many) really bothered me and my dealer (which is great BTW) was willing to swap it out for a Marantz AV10 or 20, that is bullet proof. But I found the APR-16 does sound really great, at least to my ears. And the "feel" of The APR-16 is more like a high-end product versus a mass market AVP. Having direct contact with the team that's writing the firmware gave me comfort that the problems were being worked on. In fact they did fix the DSP bug Amir found in just a few days and very quickly repaired a couple hardware problems that my APR-16 had. So I've decided to give this a few more weeks to see how many of the bugs get fixed before deciding whether I keep the APR-16 or get a Marantz.
 
Next time you speak to them can you ask if they'll publish a change log for the firmware updates? I've asked them and had nothing back so the more asking the more likely we'll get it and be able to see what's been sorted.
I've got to update our demo unit firmware and apply ART as my initial setup for a new UK Krix demo cinema had older firmware where the ART profile loaded just distorted.
 
Actually I guess it was February 4th I put it on pre-order. I just looked again.
 
SECOND UPDATE

Gave up on using CEC control. The APR16 is much more stable with this turned off on the Samsung display and APR16. Even the instability with HDMI is gone. Purchased a Sofabaton X1S. Someone already uploaded in their database the IR codes for the APR16. It took less than half hour to setup the X1S to control the APR16 with an Apple TV, Nvidia Shield and WiiM Pro Plus. Works extremely well. Only issue is the APR16 IR In seems incompatible with the IR Out of the Sofabaton Hub. That said on IR blasters it works perfectly. Never misses a command. Volume Max works. X1S controls the Apple TV and Shield via Bluetooth perfectly also, same as factory remote.

Still has bugs, like if you power cycle the unit display brightness goes back to a very bright default value. The audio signals sample and bit depth show incorrectly …. But the unit sounds great. Not missing my RME DAC on two channel music playing on Roon through the WiiM on the APR16.

One surprise is Dirac ART does not ignore the crossover settings, even though many have said that it does. ART locks the crossovers down, but certainly is not bypassing them. I noticed that with the default settings on the APR16, that has all speakers as limited bandwidth with an 80hz crossover, that the subs weren’t doing much above 67hz and the TADs were not doing much below that. So I set everything to large and used the Low Support settings in Dirac ART to tell Dirac how low I wanted each speaker to go. Huge difference. Now ART can use the subs for support up to 150hz although I’m setting the High Support to 120hz for the subs. Low Support is at 20hz on subs, 40hz on TADs, 80hz on KEF center and surround. High Support on the TADs and KEFs is at 150hz so ART can handle room modes that are between 120 and 130hz. No support from height speakers. Bass is very smooth and clean, with no audible room resonance. I can’t localize any of the support channels ever.
 
SECOND UPDATE

Gave up on using CEC control. The APR16 is much more stable with this turned off on the Samsung display and APR16. Even the instability with HDMI is gone. Purchased a Sofabaton X1S. Someone already uploaded in their database the IR codes for the APR16. It took less than half hour to setup the X1S to control the APR16 with an Apple TV, Nvidia Shield and WiiM Pro Plus. Works extremely well. Only issue is the APR16 IR In seems incompatible with the IR Out of the Sofabaton Hub. That said on IR blasters it works perfectly. Never misses a command. Volume Max works. X1S controls the Apple TV and Shield via Bluetooth perfectly also, same as factory remote.

Still has bugs, like if you power cycle the unit display brightness goes back to a very bright default value. The audio signals sample and bit depth show incorrectly …. But the unit sounds great. Not missing my RME DAC on two channel music playing on Roon through the WiiM on the APR16.

One surprise is Dirac ART does not ignore the crossover settings, even though many have said that it does. ART locks the crossovers down, but certainly is not bypassing them. I noticed that with the default settings on the APR16, that has all speakers as limited bandwidth with an 80hz crossover, that the subs weren’t doing much above 67hz and the TADs were not doing much below that. So I set everything to large and used the Low Support settings in Dirac ART to tell Dirac how low I wanted each speaker to go. Huge difference. Now ART can use the subs for support up to 150hz although I’m setting the High Support to 120hz for the subs. Low Support is at 20hz on subs, 40hz on TADs, 80hz on KEF center and surround. High Support on the TADs and KEFs is at 150hz so ART can handle room modes that are between 120 and 130hz. No support from height speakers. Bass is very smooth and clean, with no audible room resonance. I can’t localize any of the support channels ever.

I have to admit CEC should be a little further down their list than basic bugs but good to hear the firmware is OK for daily use. If you are looking at the LFE channel are you sure it isn't the default LPF Dirac applies to the LFE channel or if you have a ported sub it might not go much higher than 80/100hz in some cases.
 
My woofers are all sealed. I don’t believe it’s the default Dirac filters. Took two set of measurements. Only difference was changing the setting on the APR16 from limited bandwidth on all speakers to full range on all. The resulting Dirac filters changed, raising the resulting output from the subs from being limited to mostly below 67hz to operating closer to 100hz
 
I have contacted AVPro asking if this is intentional or a bug. Seems the crossovers are not being bypassed for the measurement sweeps.
 
I guess you can tell these folks are novices when it comes to these processors. Seems they need help from someone with experience with this stuff.
 
I guess you can tell these folks are novices when it comes to these processors. Seems they need help from someone with experience with this stuff.
My dealer tells me the very early Denon, Marantz, JBL also did not bypass the crossover when you did the Dirac sweeps and this was changed in an early firmware update. The UI also has a page where you can implement PEQ. I have not tried to use this in conjunction wirh Dirac ART. Regardless AVPro confirmed receipt my email and informed me that they are actively working on the firmware.
 
Just now listed mine in the For Sale forum if anyone is interested.

Wise decision. There is a good reason why Trinnov vs Dirac is 85% vs 15% in high-end custom installs. I was leaning towards ART based processor, but Altitude CI is a gamechanger with Dante.

But Trinnov realy shines with Waveforming, so this could be your next step, if you are able to place 2+2 subs to get cylindrical WF.
 
Wise decision. There is a good reason why Trinnov vs Dirac is 85% vs 15% in high-end custom installs. I was leaning towards ART based processor, but Altitude CI is a gamechanger with Dante.

But Trinnov realy shines with Waveforming, so this could be your next step, if you are able to place 2+2 subs to get cylindrical WF.
Trinnov is also significantly more expensive and more difficult to set up, so it should be “better”.

I understand the firmware update that addresses the Dirac issue is almost ready. I was spoiled by the more mature and mostly bulletproof firmware in my Denon 4800. That said, AVPro has been very responsive addressing problems as I’ve identified them. And after reading more about the Trinnov AL CI, it seems to me that it also had many firmware revisions.
 
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Just now listed mine in the For Sale forum if anyone is interested.
Well I'm shocked. You were the one leading the charge against buying a Storm or Trinnov. What do you think a Trinnov does better?
Nick
 
Can this be upgraded to Dirac Art?
 
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