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Human beliefs sure are weird. Why is it so difficult to get audiophiles to accept the existence of perceptual bias?
- Thread starter Zerimas
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https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ignal-grounding-preliminary-measurements.476/
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Well...as someone who uses valve amplifiers and a turntable....
....I hope you don't mind if I narrow your paintbrush just a bit.I agree that ignorance is a problem in high end audio, and this leads a gap that can be filled with nonsense.
But it's also possible to walk in to a purchase with eyes open, without unrealistic ideas or misapprehensions about the technology, and still have good reasons to purchase, say, valve amplifiers, turntables etc. (Heck...even an expensive AC cable...if you know it is unlikely to alter the sound of your system, you could still buy it for how it looks etc).
I tried reading hydrogenaudio for quite a while, but when I kept reading from members (like Arny...who I actually liked and admired) going on about how ludicrous it was that tube amps even still existed and were manufactured I was like "yeah, no...not really going along with that, thanks." I like having choices. Even if it's the choice to be frivolous or indulge something that makes me subjectively happy.
Purpletrees
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Ah HA forums the place that gives objectivists a bad rep. I tried posting there once i was told to shut up when i having issues with AAC/Vorbis artifacting way more than V0 Lame and 160kbps Musepack/Opus. Not to mention going on how Nero AAC is dead when it still 100 times better than crappy FHG aac encoders they kept prasing.
I agree it's none of their business if someone loves the warm sound of Vinyl & Tube amps not everything has to objective. Like how to me Musepack/opus at 160k and Lame V0 >>>>>> AAC/Vorbis at any bitrate.
digicidal
Major Contributor
I struggle with this all the time. While my 'main' speakers aren't horrible (Aperion GVT) by any stretch, they aren't nearly as accurate as my JBL 305's or my Adam T7V's... but they look much nicer. They're passives so I get to see my exotic (sort of: self-made Canare 4S11, nylon sleeving, gold bananas) speaker cables running along the floor to my amps... it's just more appealing in many ways. Feel the same about my full-range Tektons with whizzer cones and my little pentode tube amp... it's more engaging in some ways and with some music.
All that being said, at least 90% of the time when I want to really listen to music - I turn to the active monitors with their (subjectively at least) ugly plastic waveguides, cheap cabinets, etc. The music always sounds better, but the listening never feels as 'right'. I think being male - like most audiophiles - there's an inherent love of things that look better engineered or crafted, even if they aren't objectively better (or even as good).
I think for those with less experience or education in engineering, acoustics, etc. the pseudoscience and deception is actively preventing them from deriving pleasure from listening to music - because they're being told they can't if they don't have a six-figure budget to drop on the 'best' cables made of cryo-treated angel hair, tube DACs, exotic power filtration, 400lb speakers, etc. Although that could just be my subjective impression.
All that being said, at least 90% of the time when I want to really listen to music - I turn to the active monitors with their (subjectively at least) ugly plastic waveguides, cheap cabinets, etc. The music always sounds better, but the listening never feels as 'right'. I think being male - like most audiophiles - there's an inherent love of things that look better engineered or crafted, even if they aren't objectively better (or even as good).
I think for those with less experience or education in engineering, acoustics, etc. the pseudoscience and deception is actively preventing them from deriving pleasure from listening to music - because they're being told they can't if they don't have a six-figure budget to drop on the 'best' cables made of cryo-treated angel hair, tube DACs, exotic power filtration, 400lb speakers, etc. Although that could just be my subjective impression.
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digicidal
Major Contributor
I'm getting there... but I have to close my eyes most of the time. That and not pay attention to most of what's available - even on sites like this.
I think that the key is to focus on the music. Audio equipment is a tool, a tool which can look great and be very attractive in its own way but nevertheless just a tool. Once you realise that you are listening through the equipment, not listening to it, then I think it becomes much easier to get comfortable with whatever you have and to stop chasing rainbows. If you stop looking for marginal differences in audio equipment it is amazing just how you can enjoy music on very modest equipment. Yes, good, well set up speakers increase the enjoyment but that doesn't necessarily have to cost much. There are plenty of pretty affordable and very good active speakers or passive speakers that work well with a pretty cheap amp. And these days wireless speakers and soundbars can perform very well. I fully understand why people enjoy high end gear and sometimes I do have the urge to replace my old Sony ES set up with something nice (it won't last forever, although when it goes to the hifi lounge in the sky I think it will be replaced by system speakers) but you really don't need to spend much to enjoy music without feeling that equipment is getting in the way.
As I tend to hang to stuff that works, I had packed away several older denon receivers, some processor/preamps, a pair each of paradigm atoms, titans, and studio 40's, plus a bunch of others stuff...in addition to my 'main' listening LS50's (passive). I recently moved to where I finally have a number of discrete listening areas, and have really been pleasantly...validated maybe rather than surprised...at how good it all sounds as I get them set up. Any of it used is pretty cheap...
I also pulled out the old Denon AVR 2500 to do phono preamp duty while the phono stage is out pocket for a bit.
All of it just fills more of my house with great music.
digicidal
Major Contributor
Totally. Almost none of my older gear was replaced because of sound quality - even my ultra-budget Pioneer AVR's sounded great IMO. In almost every case the replacement was driven by a feature not available on the older model. First it was pre-amp outputs, then HDMI, then DSP, now it's streaming audio. It's been a very long time since I listened to music on anything where I didn't think "this sounds fantastic". However, whether irrational sense of competition or consumer brainwashing, there's always the little devil on my shoulder saying "but it could sound even better".
It's been a similarly long time since I thought "I need a car with more power" - but that doesn't stop me shopping for my next sports car either.
It's been a similarly long time since I thought "I need a car with more power" - but that doesn't stop me shopping for my next sports car either.
I haven't thought that since I got the M3... Now, I just need a truck with more torque!
digicidal
Major Contributor
I liked the M3 quite a bit - very similar power/feel to the RC F I have now. It's just that both could use a little more IMO. Either that or lose ~500lbs... but then my wife would have to sit on the floor - and that's not going to go over well at all.
I liked the M3 quite a bit - very similar power/feel to the RC F I have now. It's just that both could use a little more IMO. Either that or lose ~500lbs... but then my wife would have to sit on the floor - and that's not going to go over well at all.
Yes, that may cause her to lose her sense of humor.
I suppose you are right...you can't really have too many watts or too much HP.
digicidal
Major Contributor
Probably cause me to lose a lot more than that.
With watts and HP I think a simple rule of thumb is: "stop just short of explosive".To tie it all back to the OP (sort of)... because we don't experience life as pure senses - there's practically no possibility (other than objective measurements) to separate the massive transformation and distortions our brains contribute to the experience. Since ego is such a huge part of our interaction with our environment - it's natural (regardless of how irrational it might be) to assume that with familiarity comes accuracy and ability.
We (as human beings, but especially males) attribute some level of personal achievement to the things we buy, make, and enjoy. Whether you have a Ferrari 812 Superfast or a 1973 Pinto Runabout - it doesn't mean you know any more about the science behind their operation, or even the optimal driving line on a track... but if I had to guess, the Ferrari owner is much more likely to believe he does. And much less likely to be open to objective analysis to prove it one way or another.
True!
I have had a sporty car ever since I could afford one.
I worked in the motor racing business most of my career and have had plenty of experience being driven around a circuit by F1 drivers, a trip round the old Nurburgring with Keke Rosberg and Brands Hatch with Carlos Reutemann being very memorable, so I know how far from state of the art my driving is.
Most enthusiasts don't IME.
The M3 was the sporty car I kept for the shortest time. Not because of the performance, the engine (the 6-cylinder Paul Rosche designed one) was absolutely brilliant and the chassis not bad but the seat gave me back ache despite looking super and I never managed to get the climate control to give me a comfortable environment in winter, I either had stuffy head with a clear screen and cold feet or comfortable but with the windscreen misting up. We had an old cheap VW Polo for our kids to learn in and the driver's seat and simple ventilation system are much better on that, so if I was driving more than 50 miles I took that and the M3 sat at home depreciating, so it had to go.
I haven't tried a more recent one, maybe that is fixed but they are a bit big and heavy nowadays - like most cars. The latest porsche 911 is only available wide-bodied, yuk!
Horses for courses, I'm always promising myself that I'll buy a Mazda MX5 because it is relatively cheap and you can have great fun on regular roads without being on a trip to lose your license very quickly. I find most performance cars these days have so much power and are set up for such extreme performance that on regular roads at legal speeds they just feel a bit boring as they never get out of a metaphorical first gear. That said, I appreciate our family barge with just wafts along serenely in splendid isolation and does a reasonable job of making driving on our motorways and A roads sort of tolerable.
Not that opposite - both pretty vintageI have gone for the two extremes - a Morgan and a Bristol.
Not that opposite - both pretty vintage
True
, but one is very light and nimble, and has about an inch of suspension travel (half of which is chassis flexing), whereas the other is somewhat more gentleman-ish (in a pretty brutal way - it has a 5.7 l V8 with a turbo), and more suited for long motorway trips.
Care to post a pic of the Bristol? (I just like looking at Bristols, so to speak...True
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