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Human beliefs sure are weird. Why is it so difficult to get audiophiles to accept the existence of perceptual bias?

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Ever read the climategate emails? Poor Trenberth worrying about the missing heat, later postulating it is in the deep oceans.
Great place to hide it since measurements of the oceans, which cover 70% of the planet are sparse at best and we only have any sort of data at all from 2003 when the ARGOS system was put in place.
People use calls to authority when they can't prove their case.
 
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Oh my goodness. Nothing wrong with challenging any scientific theory. It's what science is doing to it's theories all the time.

But please tell me you aren't taking the above collection of fringe ID cranks seriously. (Man Berlinski in particular is just insufferable).
These are members of the Discovery Institute which formed around 1990 and they promised to gather scientists who could research ID "unemcumbered by scientific materialist dogma." And they'd be cranking out solid research and data that would "overturn scientific materialism" and produce knowledge denied by the current restrictive paradigm.

And since the 90's mostly what we've heard from the DI is the sound of crickets. Mixed with stabs of self promotion and sour grapes tossed at evolution theory. Looks like science will just have to go on getting stuff done without these hacks, no need to continue waiting twiddling thumbs for anything of substance to escape that place.

I would suggest you watch the video they problem is based on mathematicsn no mention of religion. I was surprised when I came across this recently.
 

Thomas savage

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So in your view humanity is burning up the over-accummalation of fossil fuels sequestering too much CO2. So we are on a program to restore the earth to its original condition. Cool....................well okay maybe hot.
hero_EB20000109REVIEWS081090301AR.jpg
 

Ron Texas

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Ever read the climategate emails? Poor Trenberth worrying about the missing heat, later postulating it is in the deep oceans.
Great place to hide it since measurements of the oceans, which cover 70% of the planet are sparse at best and we only have any sort of data at all from 2003 when the ARGOS system was put in place.
People use calls to authority when they can't prove their case.
Yeah, a few years after the hiatus desperate climate change activists said the heat went into the oceans. Then they changed the method of measuring surface water temperatures to produce higher results. Talk about perceptual bias. When your reputation is on the line because of questionable prior conclusions there is no limit to what will be done to save yourself.
 

Xulonn

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Sorry, but it this kind of overconfident bravado is exactly what makes ordinary people suspicious. New York City was supposed to be underwater by now.
The New York City claim was not science. Dr. Trenberth is one of the top physical scientists in the world - not bravado - hard science.
 

Xulonn

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Yeah, a few years after the hiatus desperate climate change activists said the heat went into the oceans. Then they changed the method of measuring surface water temperatures to produce higher results. Talk about perceptual bias. When your reputation is on the line because of questionable prior conclusions there is no limit to what will be done to save yourself.
I like you as an "internet audio buddy" Ron - so I will not refute your claims - although I could do so quite easily. Besides, kevin wore me out. :rolleyes:
 

THW

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as a closing statement for fossil fuels, in my opinion, even if pollution issues with fossil fuels isnt real, fossil fuel resources are finite and alternatives should be explored. nuclear is probably the most promising and perhaps only realistic option but then there’s general public fear of Chernobyl 2.
 
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I would suggest you watch the video they problem is based on mathematicsn no mention of religion. I was surprised when I came across this recently.
Yes I know the Discovery Institute's schtick is to hide the religion. I followed the ID wars for a long time. I've seen their arguments, and seen them torn apart (especially Dembski whose calculations of probabilities have been shown to be based on his ignorance of evolution and the actual nature of the "exploration space" available to the process).

If you wonder how seriously to take their arguments, just put it in the perspective of how fringe their beliefs are among scientists with the relevant knowledge and expertise, and how impotent their alternative ID-based research program has proven to be.
 
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as a closing statement for fossil fuels, in my opinion, even if pollution issues with fossil fuels isnt real, fossil fuel resources are finite and alternatives should be explored. nuclear is probably the most promising and perhaps only realistic option but then there’s general public fear of Chernobyl 2.

Liquid Salt Thorium should be developed and deployed. Coal Liquidfication and oil should be used for transportation.
 

Sergei

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Krunok

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as a closing statement for fossil fuels, in my opinion, even if pollution issues with fossil fuels isnt real, fossil fuel resources are finite and alternatives should be explored. nuclear is probably the most promising and perhaps only realistic option but then there’s general public fear of Chernobyl 2.
So, nuclear fuel supply is infinite?
 

Sergei

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However, the fact that there was natural climate change in the past is completely irrelevant as an argument against the contention that what we are experiencing now is not natural but man made.
There are man-made components of climate change, and there are natural components. Even if the ratio of their contributions to climate change since the industrial revolution were 99.99% in favor of the man-made, the question would still remain whether the warming is beneficial: it may delay the onset of the next Ice Age, right?
 

THW

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So, nuclear fuel supply is infinite?
well, technically no as of now, but the way I see it I don’t see how the alternatives are feasible. solar is probably the most reliable and consistent out of all of them but even that is also not what I would consider efficient and consistent enough to replace fossil fuel power. you are also basically at the mercy of the weather.

nuclear is also ludicrously efficient IIRC. you can get a lot of power even with a fairly small amount of fuel so this alleviates possible nuclear fuel scarcity. additional developments into alternative nuclear fuels also have great potential (usual fuel is U-235).
 
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Sergei

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Nothing to do with the laws of physics, but the climate range necessary for humans and their civilization to survive and thrive. You also probably don't understand feedbacks and why atmospheric CO2 levels rise after warming, but are not always the trigger for initial warming, while the current global warming is all CO2-based - and is overriding the slow global cooling would that natural forcings would be otherwise causing.
Well, plenty of people on Earth would be scared by global cooling. Especially Canadians: Great Britain hockey teams may grow into serious opponents if they start having access to so many naturally frozen skating rinks :) If it goes too far, even Panama national hockey team may become a contender :)
 

Cosmik

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Once you have messed with the data you have nothing, but propaganda.
In the first video, those newspaper articles from 1910 and the 1940s are beautiful. You'll never convince anyone using graphs because the slightly-numerate-but-not-ideas-oriented think they 'own' science. But the fact that they were using the same language to describe the same arctic warming and melting events 100 years ago is wonderful. I may make them into T-shirts in the hope that someone asks me what they refer to.

Edit: the great thing would be that when they first saw the key 'glaciers melting' phrases and mantras they would think I was 'one of them' (a notionally nice, fluffy, non-deplorable) but the old typeface would confuse them. Then when I explained the T-shirt they would be left to join the dots themselves. Am I nice or one of those nasty plebs? Am I just an optimistic 'progressive' or a genuine deplorable?
 
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Wombat

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Wombat

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Whew - that was difficult to keeping up with the denialist b.s. But I'm listening to a VA collection of Celtic Fingerstyle Guitar as I do battle with anti-science blather, so things are still tranquillo here in Panama. As many of probably noticed, I have made a great effort - as I do with audio - to learn the actual scientific foundations of global warming and related climate change.

Fortunately, I had a lot of experience battling AGW/CC denialism at the WeatherUnderground.com blog of a climate scientist - Professor Richard (Ricky) Rood. Unfortuna?tely, after IBM bought the organization, the climate blog was shut down as commercial interests took over to focus on weather data for sale.

I admire and respect Dr. Rood,especially for his efforts in teaching "climate change problem solving," and it was an honor to participate at his blog. During that time, I also took an online course (MOOC) from the university of British Columbia to formally study basic climate science.
The ignorance quickly becomes pig-ignorance, doesn't it
 

Krunok

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well, technically no as of now, but the way I see it I don’t see how the alternatives are feasible. solar is probably the most reliable and consistent out of all of them but even that is also not what I would consider efficient and consistent enough to replace fossil fuel power. you are also basically at the mercy of the weather.

nuclear is also ludicrously efficient IIRC. you can get a lot of power even with a fairly small amount of fuel so this alleviates possible nuclear fuel scarcity. additional developments into alternative nuclear fuels also have great potential (usual fuel is U-235).
IMHO only fusion can save us in the long run.
 

THW

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IMHO only fusion can save us in the long run.
ehhhh fusion still has huge issues, i don't think anyone has come up with a fusion process that actually gives us a net positive in overall energy output IIRC (the sun doesn't count :) )

but yes fusion has a lot of potential and worth exploring too.
 
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