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HT front speakers - wide asymmetric or narrow symmetric placement? Or something else?

Chris2-2

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Recently moved to a new house where there's a fireplace in the way of placing the front speakers in a good way. (See the pictures attached.) I'm wondering what's the best way to place them, from a sound perspective. TV/movies are 90 % of what I do, so I prioritize that.

The system currently consists of:
  • Dali Zensor 7 - front speakers
  • Dali Zensor Vokal - center
  • Denon AVR-1913
I also plan to buy an SVS SB-2000 (gf thinks the PB is too big), and also mount my 2 non-connected Dali Zensor 1 as rear speakers. I will also soon mount the TV on the wall.

Moving the TV, sofa, and everything to the left of the fireplace is not an option!

With the (current) asymmetric placement:
  • I get a big sound and can really distinguish the sounds coming from left/center/right.
  • I have ran the room correction on my receiver, but as soon as I'm off by a bit of the center listening position, you really hear more from the left or right speaker.
    • Would this be better with a better receiver, someone with the Audyssey XT32? I also read the newer Oberon series handles this better?
  • I'm also concerned about the bass response, having the speaker on the other side of the fireplace. Does it bounce the bass away from the sofa?
    • I guess if buying the SB-2000, that won't be a problem though?

With symmetric placement:
  • It would look much nicer!
  • I'm worried that all the sounds coming from left/center/right will be mashed too much together and you won't get that big sound stage.
  • It will sound very off when sitting on the far left of the sofa?
  • If (when) I buy a 77"/83" TV, I will have to have the left speaker way too close to the fireplace.
    • Could switch to TV bench-placed Zensor/Oberon 3's though to avoid that.
What do you think gives me the best sound? Should I keep the asymmetric? Or place them symmetric, but very narrow?


I'm also considering upgrading to Oberon 7's and a Denon X3600/X3700, with Audyssey XT32. Especially after I read some reviews from people saying the Oberon's handle asymmetric placement better and that seat position won't be as affected as with the Zensor 7's.
 

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The positioning is really suboptimal in either case for multiple reasons, and I don't think any amount of EQ or room correction is going to be able to make a substantial difference. The only good way to address it is to do what you say is not an option: radically change the layout of the room.
 
The positioning is really suboptimal in either case for multiple reasons, and I don't think any amount of EQ or room correction is going to be able to make a substantial difference. The only good way to address it is to do what you say is not an option: radically change the layout of the room.
I've tried to persuade my gf a lot about it, but it hasn't even come to be a discussion yet.

Another idea (haven't brought this up at home yet, though), would be to symmetrically roof-mount a pair of Zensor/Oberon 3's, pointed downwards, with the left one above the fireplace. Do you think that (and adding a sub) would be a better option? Edit: That was definitely not an option.
 
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I don't understand what 'symmetric' placement would be here. Where would you put the speakers? The left one would be in front of the fireplace?

Your diagram does not show you sitting in the center/symmetric position relative to the speakers. You could move your listening position a bit to the left so you are really centered between the speakers. That might or might not make things sound better.

But with the setup in the photo I sure would not point that right speaker straight forward, not with that hard surface right next to it. I would toe it in to fire at your seated position, and the other one too. Then you're at least removing the room a bit from the upper frequency response at the listening position.

Bass in your case is not easy to predict. But (real) bass is omnidirectional. It won't 'bounce' off a sofa though it might get absorbed a bit by it. The higher grade of Audyssey applies more taps to the bass frequencies, so conceivably it might make a difference for the better. You are undoubtedly getting a stronger SBIR effect on the right speaker (which is in a corner) than the left...i.e., a bigger bass boost from it than from the left speaker.

But as always, actual measurements would tell the tale.
 
Yeah after thinking about it I agree with the krabby apple above. Your current "asymmetric" placement is probably the best compromise here, but definitely toe the speakers in towards the listening position. There's no avoiding that moving out of the "sweet spot" where you're more-or-less equidistant from the two speakers will result in issues with one of the channels (assuming the right channel in this situation) being more prominent than the other.

Having your mains ceiling mounted is just another big compromise that might be worse than what you have now. Not to mention that you'd really need to move the center as well, as the mismatched vertical positioning between the front 3 channels would almost certainly be noticeable.

If you really want to drill down into it, again agree: get a UMIK-1 and learn to use REW so you (and we) can see exactly what's going on.
 
[..] With the (current) asymmetric placement:
  • I have ran the room correction on my receiver, but as soon as I'm off by a bit of the center listening position, you really hear more from the left or right speaker.
You must toe in the speakers a lot, so that the on-axis lines cross in front of your listening position. This helps to increase the sweet spot, but it works only if your speakers have a smooth off-axis frequency response. Try different toe in angles.
 
I don't understand what 'symmetric' placement would be here. Where would you put the speakers? The left one would be in front of the fireplace?

Your diagram does not show you sitting in the center/symmetric position relative to the speakers. You could move your listening position a bit to the left so you are really centered between the speakers. That might or might not make things sound better.

But with the setup in the photo I sure would not point that right speaker straight forward, not with that hard surface right next to it. I would toe it in to fire at your seated position, and the other one too. Then you're at least removing the room a bit from the upper frequency response at the listening position.

Bass in your case is not easy to predict. But (real) bass is omnidirectional. It won't 'bounce' off a sofa though it might get absorbed a bit by it. The higher grade of Audyssey applies more taps to the bass frequencies, so conceivably it might make a difference for the better. You are undoubtedly getting a stronger SBIR effect on the right speaker (which is in a corner) than the left...i.e., a bigger bass boost from it than from the left speaker.

But as always, actual measurements would tell the tale.
That's a good question. When I said symmetric, I meant with the speakers an equal distance from the TV and the center, so to the right of the fireplace. But yeah, it's still asymmetric to most seating positions on the sofa. The problem with moving to the left would be that I'm off-center of the TV instead.

I will toe them in and experiment a bit with what sounds the best. I think the reason I put them straight is because that's what Dali suggests, but I realize now that doesn't apply to me having a weird room layout.

I'm not sure what you write about bass means (I really do need to read up a bit on some technical parts, I see!). More bass from the right speaker isn't necessarily bad, right? As long as it's omnidirectional. Or might a bigger bass boost on the right speaker also alter the mids and highs a lot? If so, I guess it would be good to buy a separate bass like the SB-2000, to offload the bass from the fronts.

Yeah after thinking about it I agree with the krabby apple above. Your current "asymmetric" placement is probably the best compromise here, but definitely toe the speakers in towards the listening position. There's no avoiding that moving out of the "sweet spot" where you're more-or-less equidistant from the two speakers will result in issues with one of the channels (assuming the right channel in this situation) being more prominent than the other.

Having your mains ceiling mounted is just another big compromise that might be worse than what you have now. Not to mention that you'd really need to move the center as well, as the mismatched vertical positioning between the front 3 channels would almost certainly be noticeable.

If you really want to drill down into it, again agree: get a UMIK-1 and learn to use REW so you (and we) can see exactly what's going on.
Didn't think about the center.

Thank you for that tip! It wasn't very expensive, so I'll read up on that and probably order one of those!
 
I was discussing the room layout and the possibility of moving everything to the left part of the living room, which isn't optimal either because of the windows there. But when doing that, my girlfriend came up with a very good point.

Most often, it's just her and I who watch something. I usually sit at the sweet spot pointed out in the picture and she's to the right of me, in the corner (also, she cares less about sound than I do). With that in consideration, would it be better to place the speakers what I call "symmetric"? With them both directly to the TV bench? Or should I keep them as now and experiment with toeing them in?

I have two kids though, who in a couple of years will be old enough to have all four of us watching together, thus filling the entire back row of the sofa. So the above observation is a bit temporary.
 
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