OP
- Thread Starter
- #61
An update. Company responded asking me how I had measured the speaker. I gave them a link to my video tutorial and am waiting for feedback.
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
HSU MFL-6 Home Theater Speaker Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Rick63
Addicted to Fun and Learning
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2021
- Messages
- 537
- Likes
- 1,121
Any comments on your CCB-8 review from them?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #63
No, just the question about methodology.
Seems a silly question... It's not exactly a secret. And a little poking around reveals good agreement with Neumann, Genelec, Harman, KEF, etc. data, so no good reason to suspect a methodological problem. Hint for HSU: the problem is likely the DUT
.
I got a feeling there is nothing wrong with the measured sample. But the company is looking for a reasoned way to explain away the poor numbers. JMHO.Seems a silly question... It's not exactly a secret. And a little poking around reveals good agreement with Neumann, Genelec, Harman, KEF, etc. data, so no good reason to suspect a methodological problem. Hint for HSU: the problem is likely the DUT
About getting accurate measurements of compression drivers:
People often say that compression drivers sound harsh, but is it possible that they are actually louder than "normal" measurement equipment indicates?
I was recently comparing speakers with silk dome tweeters to my diy speakers with compression drivers. I felt I had a bit of a revelation, thinking to myself that the compression drivers must be louder than my UMIK indicates!
Is this a thing? I am proposing that a measuremet mic may be producing more of an "average" measurement instead of capturing the true peak energy? I tried asking this question before and used the term "transient", but I was told that was the wrong word. But what I was meaning relates to Amir's video discussing the true SPL of acoustic instruments, some of which were over 120dB. He described how these measurements required highly specialized equipment to take the measurements.
So playing devil's advocate a little, maybe the measurement would be different if a different microphone were used? I feel like I'm on to something, but I haven't found any information about this type of thing...
People often say that compression drivers sound harsh, but is it possible that they are actually louder than "normal" measurement equipment indicates?
I was recently comparing speakers with silk dome tweeters to my diy speakers with compression drivers. I felt I had a bit of a revelation, thinking to myself that the compression drivers must be louder than my UMIK indicates!
Is this a thing? I am proposing that a measuremet mic may be producing more of an "average" measurement instead of capturing the true peak energy? I tried asking this question before and used the term "transient", but I was told that was the wrong word. But what I was meaning relates to Amir's video discussing the true SPL of acoustic instruments, some of which were over 120dB. He described how these measurements required highly specialized equipment to take the measurements.
So playing devil's advocate a little, maybe the measurement would be different if a different microphone were used? I feel like I'm on to something, but I haven't found any information about this type of thing...
OP
- Thread Starter
- #68
It is not as we are measuring steady state signals. Compression drivers routinely show 5 to 6 dB higher sensitivity which means they can play much louder given the same amplification. So your concluding part is correct that in actual music playback, they tend to be much more dynamic.
A reference that began back in the 1950s and 60s with tweeters-midrange drivers that were harsh and can continue into today with cheap drivers and poor crossover designs. OTOH modern drivers and horn designs sound beautiful when TOTL quality products are heard. A shame the way many old myths get labeled onto todays gear. Much of todays studio monitors are of horn/waveguide design and are considered SOTA.
The natural follow-up for me is what is the correct way to EQ a horn in a multi-way system? Do we still want it to be anachoically flat, even knowing the horn will end up being louder than the accompanying woofer when playing dynamic material?
It is an area of interest for me. I am using coaxial drivers (horn with conventional woofer), and getting the EQ just right has been non-trivial My current solution is to EQ the speakers flat in close-up measurements, and then add a high shelf filter to create a little more high frequency roll-off. That helps, but I suspect (1) horn purists would not like it and (2) it is a technically imperfect solution?
It's a little beyond the scope of this thread, but this is helping me with questions about compression drivers and coaxial drivers! Awhile back I was asking what is the purpose of drivers like the B&C DCX464 coaxial compression driver (compared to a conventional coaxial), and people said it is just SPL and pattern control. Nobody mentioned the coaxial CD would fix a mismatch in dynamic SPL that would occur with conventional coaxials, given they use drivers with dramatically different sensitivity.
So thanks for clarity on this. Hopefully I'm getting it right? I was vaguely aware something wasn't quite right with my design, but I wasn't sure precisely what the problem was. I thought about giving up on coaxial drivers in favor of dome tweeters. I thought about trying a coaxial compression driver. But I didn't understand what I was noticing, so it was hard to tell if either option would fix the problem, or why they would fix the problem.
Generally yes.
This does not occur unless you're pushing the thermal limits of the woofer or clipping the amp driving it, neither of which should happen if high fidelity is the intent.
A flat near field response does not generally translate to flat far field response. To equalize the system properly, you need measurements that are done far enough away to be in the acoustic far field (depends on the size of the speaker, but generally 2 meters is sufficient) with enough reflection-free time for useful frequency resolution after windowing/gating.
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2022
- Messages
- 1,506
- Likes
- 1,879
I agree a response from Hsu Research to be unlikely to be the last word in any forum.
I would ask that they not let that deter them from making a statement.
I would appreciate hearing from Hsu Research.
I've read countless threads proposing this theory. According to this theory, all transducers sound the same, as long as they are not pushed too hard. I suspect it is mostly true, but maybe not "all" true...
Amir said the compression driver is more "dynamic". I don't want to contradict Amir! Reproduction of transients is a characteristic of speakers that doesn't get talked about by audiophiles. But it comes up more in music production. (I may still be off the mark a little, but I'm pretty sure there is something in this general vacinity!)
In my specific test scenario, I was comparing a 1" silk dome tweeter mounted coaxially with 5" woofer, to a 1.4" throat compression driver coaxial with a 12" woofer. Not the same, but both coaxial. At the same SPL, maybe 70dB at the listening position, the compression driver sounded louder than the dome. The dome tweeter had the benefit of measuring surprisingly flat, but in practice I found the coaxial dome tweeter made me uninterested in listening to music. Music sounded a bit "boring". By comparison, when I started listening to the compression drivers, I was seeking out music I don't normally listen to just to hear what it sounded like on my system, I started watching videos about drums and cymbals, because it sounded real (I'm not a drummer...). With the dome tweeter it definitely sounded compressed, and the component of sound that was engaging to me was missing.
So yeah, I don't completely believe in the "they all sound the same" theory.
But regarding these HSU speakers, they probably just need an L-pad. It'd be an easy modification.
I agree. I've known Dr Hsu for 30 years now and always found him a honest gentleman on the phone.
That said, he's up against the wall here with this speaker. Whatever the intentions, its will never be a audiophile pick.
IMHO his HB-1 Mk2 was still his best offering, at $199 you could ask for little more.
He did surprise me with this offering.
HSU HB-1 MK2 Review (Horn Speaker)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the HSU HB-1 MK 2 bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $169 each as of this writing (normal price $199). I can't say I am a fan of the industrial looking horn but otherwise, the HB-1 looks fine: As you see, it uses a...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Last edited:
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2022
- Messages
- 1,506
- Likes
- 1,879
Yes, Hsu Research can remember taking orders over a voice telephone and payments made with a USPS money order.I agree. I've known Dr Hsu for 30 years now and always found him a honest gentleman on the phone.
That said, he's up against the wall here with this speaker. Whatever the intention its will never be a audiophile pick.
IMHO his HB-1 Mk2 was still his best offering, at $199 you could ask for little more.
He did surprise me with this offering.
HSU HB-1 MK2 Review (Horn Speaker)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the HSU HB-1 MK 2 bookshelf speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $169 each as of this writing (normal price $199). I can't say I am a fan of the industrial looking horn but otherwise, the HB-1 looks fine: As you see, it uses a...
I own a Hsu Research STF-2 subwoofer and appreciate the savings of a direct-to-consumer business model.
I hoped the MFL-6 and CCB-8 would measure as competitve at their respective price points while being amenable to further improvement with the application of Parametric EQ.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #77
I have had no follow up after I gave them my youtube video link on how I measure and them thanking me for it.
I think there was nothing to debate or counter.
From a marketing point of view the sooner the noise over this dies down the better.
Unlike some others, they have chosen the high road and not come back with the threat to sue. LOL
Similar threads
- Poll
