How to tell it's a match or not. DAC output to AV Receiver

[adw]

I want to install external DAC between android media player (Zidoo Z9S) and my AV receiver (Marantz AV8801) since the AV receiver cannot play DSD file using USB storage.

How to see if the output from external DAC is a match to pre-amp built in AV receiver?

Zidoo to external DAC (plan to buy Topping E30 or other recommended DAC up to $500) will be connected using USB.
External DAC (in DAC mode) to AV receiver using RCA output to AUX-IN in AV receiver.

The goal I want to achieve is to avoid DSD-to-PCM conversion inside Zidoo media player and hopefully will get a better sound.

Before this, i already try to:
1. Borrowed Audiolab M-DAC+, play DSD and FLAC using PC (foobar) and connect the DAC using very cheap RCA cable to the receiver. Sound is much much better.
2. Play supported file directly in the receiver using USB flashdisk, in this case FLAC files. Compared to play the file in Zidoo, playing directly in the receiver gives much better detail and control. Still, not as good with Audiolab M-DAC+.

At the moment, Zidoo is directly connected to AV receiver using HDMI. The audio output on Zidoo is set to RAW, but it is only effective for movies. This thing is confirmed since "sig: PCM" is displayed on the AV receiver while playing music.

I also attached the installation diagram, e30 & av8801 specification.

I know better sound is very subjective, but I'm affraid 2Vrms output from DAC is too much for the receiver and the signal will be clipped.

 

[Fluffy]

What's the point in DSD though?

 

[LTig]

If you use Audissey room eq or any other tone controls the AVR digitizes your analog signal to PCM anyway, so this makes no sense.

 

[LTig]

I know better sound is very subjective, but I'm affraid 2Vrms output from DAC is too much for the receiver and the signal will be clipped.

No, it won't.

 

[adw]

What's the point in DSD though?

Sorry for being unclear. Nothing, DSD is the file I used to confirmed if there is a conversion in Zidoo media player. And today, I plug USB flashdrive to my receiver, the signal is displayed as FLAC for FLAC files, instead of PCM if played using Zidoo. The sound difference is very noticeable, thats why I borrow M-DAC+. And today I decided to buy external DAC, but a much cheaper one.

 

[adw]

If you use Audissey room eq or any other tone controls the AVR digitizes your analog signal to PCM anyway, so this makes no sense.

Yes, this is what I though for years.

I suspect the sound is different since the first day I played it from Zidoo. And today I'm very sure it is.. since last week, I'm back to the old ways, put the CD on the CD player or just plug USB flashdrive to the receivers, it is very clear the sound is different.

For that reason, I borrowed the M-DAC+ and the sound is improved, especially in presence. This is happening on all sound modes I usually used for listening (DTS Neo-X, PL II+Audyssey DSX, direct or pure direct).

 

[adw]

No, it won't.

Ok, I will give it a try. Thank you.

 

[LTig]

Yes, this is what I though for years.

I suspect the sound is different since the first day I played it from Zidoo. And today I'm very sure it is.. since last week, I'm back to the old ways, put the CD on the CD player or just plug USB flashdrive to the receivers, it is very clear the sound is different.

For that reason, I borrowed the M-DAC+ and the sound is improved, especially in presence. This is happening on all sound modes I usually used for listening (DTS Neo-X, PL II+Audyssey DSX, direct or pure direct).

Did you prove to yourself with at least a blind test under controlled conditions that those differences really exist? Otherwise chances are very high that you fooled yourself (as anybody would, even the experts).

 

[twsecrest]

I want to install external DAC between android media player (Zidoo Z9S) and my AV receiver (Marantz AV8801) since the AV receiver cannot play DSD file using USB storage.
How to see if the output from external DAC is a match to pre-amp built in AV receiver?
Zidoo to external DAC (plan to buy Topping E30 or other recommended DAC up to $500) will be connected using USB.
External DAC (in DAC mode) to AV receiver using RCA output to AUX-IN in AV receiver.
The goal I want to achieve is to avoid DSD-to-PCM conversion inside Zidoo media player and hopefully will get a better sound.
I know better sound is very subjective, but I'm affraid 2Vrms output from DAC is too much for the receiver and the signal will be clipped.

Just about any line-output (RCA or 3.5mm) analog jack on a DAC, should work fine with the line-input (RCA) jacks on the receiver.

 

[adw]

Did you prove to yourself with at least a blind test under controlled conditions that those differences really exist? Otherwise chances are very high that you fooled yourself (as anybody would, even the experts).

Agree and I just missed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

Will do blind test soon. I have returned the M-DAC, so test is between playing through Zidoo and play directly using flashdrive.

 

[adw]

Just about any line-output (RCA or 3.5mm) analog jack on a DAC, should work fine with the line-input (RCA) jacks on the receiver.

Thank you.

 

[LTig]

Agree and I just missed that. Thank you for pointing that out.

Will do blind test soon. I have returned the M-DAC, so test is between playing through Zidoo and play directly using flashdrive.

If you connect the Zidoo vai HDMI to the AVR level matching should not be required - but make sure that the AVR settings for HDMI and USB are the same. I have a AV7701 and AFAIR you can set the input level on some inputs - could be the analog ones though. When you compare USB flashdrive with Zidoo -> DAC ->analog input you must do a level match to 0.1 dB!

 

[adw]

Yes, Zidoo is connected via HDMI.

Here is what I found today:

1. USB level is set to +3dB, I don't remember when I do this. Now the level is set to 0dB, the same with Zidoo.

2. Played 1kHz tone (WAV, 44.1kHz), cracking heard from my surround right speaker. I do terminal cleaning, cut the cable about 1", reconnect the cable. Solved.

3. Measure SPL. The result is not reliable as I use my phone to measure SPL. With the wav, I need to adjust USB to -3dB to get the same output level. But when I try to play the music, the Zidoo heard louder therefore it is feel better. I can confirmed it is louder because my windows start to rattling. Noise during the measurement is also high, 37.3dB.

4. Readjust USB level to 0dB. Now the SPL measurement using USB is 70.2-70.3dB and the Zidoo is 67.7-67.8dB.

5. The volume while playing music (FLAC) now feels the same.

With inconsistency like that, I can't proceed to "controlled" blind test.

And yes, it is more difficult for me to tell difference, the result is mixed. For some music I prefer Zidoo, and for some I prefer USB.

My mind playing tricks on me..

What I achieved during blind test prep is identifying underlying problem, in my case bad cable-speaker termination. Addressing this issue improve the sound.

Now, I'm having a hard time. I want to buy the DAC, but the result during blind test preparation is clear, I don't need more DAC.

I think I will wait couple days or one month to decide.

 

[adw]

Tried Topping DX3 Pro external DAC for two weeks now, the sound is better. I didn't try blind test, but I can be sure it's different. After making a level matching between hdmi and analog output from the DAC (using unreliable measuring tool, my phone as dB meter) the difference is even clearer. Different bass weights, mid and high sounds more detailed. Perhaps this difference is due to the op-amp on the external dac, I don't know for sure.

I also finally added a linear power supply to the DAC, it didn't sound different, but I feel better with the linear power supply.

I think this improvement will differ from one another, depending on the audio system.

In my case, the following system was installed:

Zidoo z9s
Topping DX3 Pro + linear power supply
Marantz AV8801 AV receiver
Marantz MM8077 amplifier (7 channel)
Marantz MM7055 amplifier (5 channel)
Jamo C series speakers (main, center, front wide, surround back)
Jamo A series speakers (front height and surround)
Jamo 10 "subwoofer, forget the type.

Before installing the external dac, I didn't get carried into the song too deep, now I often stomp my feet. Emotionally, I can say the external dac is worth every penny.

Thank you LTig, twsecrest and everyone on ASR. This DAC makes me smile all the time.

 

[Peib]

Tried Topping DX3 Pro external DAC for two weeks now, the sound is better. I didn't try blind test, but I can be sure it's different. After making a level matching between hdmi and analog output from the DAC (using unreliable measuring tool, my phone as dB meter) the difference is even clearer. Different bass weights, mid and high sounds more detailed. Perhaps this difference is due to the op-amp on the external dac, I don't know for sure.

I also finally added a linear power supply to the DAC, it didn't sound different, but I feel better with the linear power supply.

I think this improvement will differ from one another, depending on the audio system.

In my case, the following system was installed:

Zidoo z9s
Topping DX3 Pro + linear power supply
Marantz AV8801 AV receiver
Marantz MM8077 amplifier (7 channel)
Marantz MM7055 amplifier (5 channel)
Jamo C series speakers (main, center, front wide, surround back)
Jamo A series speakers (front height and surround)
Jamo 10 "subwoofer, forget the type.

Before installing the external dac, I didn't get carried into the song too deep, now I often stomp my feet. Emotionally, I can say the external dac is worth every penny.

Thank you LTig, twsecrest and everyone on ASR. This DAC makes me smile all the time.

Thanks for posting this.
I have the Toppong D50 and considering to buy ZidooZ9s, but i dont know how should i connect it to the dac.
How did you do? With the optical output?
Another question i have, how good is the interface performance when managing music storate? Fluent enough?
Thanks!

 

[adw]

I have the Toppong D50 and considering to buy ZidooZ9s, but i dont know how should i connect it to the dac.
How did you do? With the optical output?

USB cable. Please see topology.jpg on the first post.

Another question i have, how good is the interface performance when managing music storate? Fluent enough?

What is interface performance? Did you mean Zidoo Z9S performance? Sometimes USB disconnected for no reason. But still usable. You just need to unplug and plug again.

 

[jasoncloud9]

Tried Topping DX3 Pro external DAC for two weeks now, the sound is better. I didn't try blind test, but I can be sure it's different. After making a level matching between hdmi and analog output from the DAC (using unreliable measuring tool, my phone as dB meter) the difference is even clearer. Different bass weights, mid and high sounds more detailed. Perhaps this difference is due to the op-amp on the external dac, I don't know for sure.

I also finally added a linear power supply to the DAC, it didn't sound different, but I feel better with the linear power supply.

I think this improvement will differ from one another, depending on the audio system.

In my case, the following system was installed:

Zidoo z9s
Topping DX3 Pro + linear power supply
Marantz AV8801 AV receiver
Marantz MM8077 amplifier (7 channel)
Marantz MM7055 amplifier (5 channel)
Jamo C series speakers (main, center, front wide, surround back)
Jamo A series speakers (front height and surround)
Jamo 10 "subwoofer, forget the type.

Before installing the external dac, I didn't get carried into the song too deep, now I often stomp my feet. Emotionally, I can say the external dac is worth every penny.

Thank you LTig, twsecrest and everyone on ASR. This DAC makes me smile all the time.

Hi,i`m currently thinking of doing the same to my setup too. May i ask with this setup of yours,can you still choose between surround and stereo mode in media playback?