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How to properly integrate a subwoofer with my tower speakers?

fjhuerta

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So, long story short. I did get the Revel F206s.

I used a pair of DIY speakers with 10" woofers, and I DO miss the lower registers.

A good friend sold me a mint M&K MX-125ii sub. I cannot afford anything else due to having bought the Revels. But from what I've read, these were extremely nice subs.

Anyway, I'm looking at integrating them to my towers.

There is a corner right in the center of my speakers, to the back. I want to place the sub there.

The sub is going to be away from the speakers. About 1.2 meters away from each, equidistant.

From what I've read and seen, the only proper way to integrate subs and speakers would be using a MiniDSP, EQing as much as possible and setting delays on the mains.

I was just wondering if this would be the best way.... opinions would be welcome.

Thanks!
 

Chrispy

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Placing a sub where you find it aesthetically/practically suitable doesn't mean a lot to the sub and your room.....unless I suppose you have good feng shui? Corner loading can have issues, but might be good for a single sub solution. Best way to help is with dsp like an avr/minidsp....what is your gear and/or software to integrate subs with?
 
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fjhuerta

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I'll be using REW and MiniDSP to integrate it all. There's only a single space where the sub can be placed... equidistant to both speakers, right in the center, behind them, in a corner. It would not make much sense to do it in nay other place.

If I use the MiniDSP I'm actually thinking of getting rid of my preamp and using its remote control as a volume, too.
 
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fjhuerta

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Well, I did what I thought. I got rid of the preamp and used the MiniDSP as a volume control and signal selector. I used the filters on the MiniDSP and forgot about every setting on the sub. After a couple of hours of measuring, I now have a fuller sounding speaker system. I can't imagine wanting an F208 now, and I can't believe how much I was missing without so much bottom end.
 

sigbergaudio

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I'm intrigued by the fact that you have a corner in the center between your speakers. Are your setup diagonal in the room then?
 

pablolie

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...not easily. :) There are as many different approaches there as there are sub-integrating self-declared experts. If you have a single sub, make sure you don't cross it over at over 80Hz, otherwise it'll defeat attempts at placing it optimally.

If you want to force a position, then some room correction is probably mandatory, and even then it may not be the optimal result without trying optimal placement.
 

irontortoise

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...not easily. :) There are as many different approaches there as there are sub-integrating self-declared experts. If you have a single sub, make sure you don't cross it over at over 80Hz, otherwise it'll defeat attempts at placing it optimally.

If you want to force a position, then some room correction is probably mandatory, and even then it may not be the optimal result without trying optimal placement.
This interests me. If there’s a good article on this, can you share that? Otherwise, should it be higher or lower than 80Hz, or is it speaker dependent? Is this only for finding the ideal location, or keep the crossover the same even after placement?
 

Chrispy

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...not easily. :) There are as many different approaches there as there are sub-integrating self-declared experts. If you have a single sub, make sure you don't cross it over at over 80Hz, otherwise it'll defeat attempts at placing it optimally.

If you want to force a position, then some room correction is probably mandatory, and even then it may not be the optimal result without trying optimal placement.
How so with the 80hz crossover?
 

levimax

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This interests me. If there’s a good article on this, can you share that? Otherwise, should it be higher or lower than 80Hz, or is it speaker dependent? Is this only for finding the ideal location, or keep the crossover the same even after placement?
Attached is my favorite sub placement article. Regarding crossover 80 Hz or lower if your mains can keep up.... higher if they can't. I like an octave of overlap i.e. flat to 40 Hz for the mains for an 80 Hz crossover but many consider that overkill. It certainly makes thing easier.
 

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Chrispy

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Because that doesn't eliminate room modes, which can depend on location and frequency. But it'll sound better, in any case, than doing nothing. :)
But why 80 particularly, are you saying 80 is always a room mode frequency?
 

irontortoise

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Attached is my favorite sub placement article. Regarding crossover 80 Hz or lower if your mains can keep up.... higher if they can't. I like an octave of overlap i.e. flat to 40 Hz for the mains for an 80 Hz crossover but many consider that overkill. It certainly makes thing easier.
Awesome! Thanks for this. This is exactly what I need.
 

pablolie

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But why 80 particularly, are you saying 80 is always a room mode frequency?
I refers to the fact that th human ear can not establish which direction frequencies 80Hz and under come from. Crank it above that, and you'll hear where that sub is, which we'll agree is suboptimal for a system with a single sub.

Aside from that, you want the frequency range -in general as well as 20-80Hz specifically- to be presented in a balance way (spatial and time domains).

There are many dependencies...
 

Chrispy

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I refers to the fact that th human ear can not establish which direction frequencies 80Hz and under come from. Crank it above that, and you'll hear where that sub is, which we'll agree is suboptimal for a system with a single sub.

Aside from that, you want the frequency range -in general as well as 20-80Hz specifically- to be presented in a balance way (spatial and time domains).

There are many dependencies...
Maybe a single sub might be localizable but 80 isn't a firm rule on that either.
 

pablolie

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Maybe a single sub might be localizable but 80 isn't a firm rule on that either.
Indeed, which I captured in my response.

The question is, do you want a helpful rule of thumb, or the real thing?

For rules of thumb, there are many white papers out there, but in general set up your speakers up with the magic triangle rule, put your sub at <80Hz as close to the speaker middle as you can, and tune the volume level of the sub until it sounds "best" for you from your listening position. But that will seldom be the true, optimal, best-performing option.
 

AwesomeSauce2015

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I refers to the fact that th human ear can not establish which direction frequencies 80Hz and under come from. Crank it above that, and you'll hear where that sub is, which we'll agree is suboptimal for a system with a single sub.

Aside from that, you want the frequency range -in general as well as 20-80Hz specifically- to be presented in a balance way (spatial and time domains).

There are many dependencies...
I'm going to second @Chrispy.
I can tell where sub bass is coming from if the sub is placed far enough from the mains.
That's part of why the latest update to the home theater system included setting up dual subs on the front... Also because MAPP XT said that that was actually a decent position.

"Room Modes" are the resonances in a room that amplify and cancel out certain frequencies (below the transition frequency, which is room dependent) at various positions in a room.
For example, in my last setup, I had a room mode at 60hz, and a cancellation at 120. At my listening position I had a ton of 60hz energy from the sub and barely any 120hz energy.
Room Modes alone have very little to do with the ability to tell where a subwoofer is located in a room via listening, especially if EQ is implemented to correct the room modes. The crossover frequency, on the other hand, can determine the localize-ability of a subwoofer, along with the relative level between it and the mains.

To OP: If you have a mic and minidsp, then you should be pretty set to do a sub integration. There are probably a bunch of tutorials out there on how to do it, so I won't go over it again... Although I would recommend experimenting with various positions to see if any one position is better than another, but if your layout only allows for one position then I guess it'll have to work...
Multisub is something I would recommend to further combat room modes, but that can come later...
 
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fjhuerta

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I did the MiniDSP placement and some EQ. Other than a 10dB notch at 50 Hz, the sub works flat down to 20 Hz and below. It worked beautifullly, and so far, I haven't been able to detect any placement issues. That said, I did fiddle with delays, EQ, and different slopes until I managed to do a seamless transition. I ended up with a 4th order electrical slope on both speakers and sub at 50 Hz, with a coule of mS of delay. By measuring in different positions, I got a very flat response from about 150 Hz downwards. I'm really happy with the result - and I'm sure if I don't tell people they'd never guess there's a sub there. I love it - I had never properly integrated a sub until now!
 
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fjhuerta

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Great! But we still want to see a PICTURE since we are wondering about the "equidistant in a corner."
PXL_20221023_192810888.jpg
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Sub's right behind the furniture housing my gear. In a corner, equidistant to both speakers - basically a triangle. Not an optimal position but there was no other way to set up the speakers at home.
 
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