How to improve my setup? Elac DBR62 + Pioneer A-505R + Topping d10s DAC + Wiim Mini streamer

[CauliflowerEars]

Thanks to this great forum, I've upgraded to the Elac DBR-62 speakers (thank you!). The rest is still a mystery for me. Currently considering piecing the following setup and am curious:
Q1. Which elements should I change/upgrade to improve the audio quality/experience the most? Bearing in mind the 'Improvement % / Invested Money' ratio. Some initial ideas:
a. Some room treatment?
b. Better speaker placement?
c. DAC/Streamer - I've just ordered those and can easily return. Together, they come to 238 USD / 225 EUR. Maybe there's a better 2in1 equipment? Maybe a different DAC will boost the quality? Maybe something cheaper than Wiim (a bit confused about all the Chromecasts, etc)? Also open to the idea of a new integrated amp/streamer/DAC (depending on the cost), but heard my Pioneer isn't too bad?
d. More speakers? Centre, Sub, back speakers for surround?
e. Other ... ?
Q2. Is this the best way to go about connecting the sources to the amp/speakers? Which connections/cables/streaming should I use? Apart from mini jack and RCA/Cinch, not much experience with the others, especially in terms of audio quality.
Q3. Open to any other comments, questions and/or suggestions ... Thank you!

Listening area = about 269 ft2 / 25m2 (living room 14m2 + kitchen 11m2). The usual: music, movies, background music. The red measurements are in metres (I'm in Europe, if it matters).
No special room treatment so far, apart from the usual: thick velvet curtains (300 g/m²) - can either cover the whole wall/windows or moved anywhere along the wall, plush sofa, a random carpet in the middle. Currently random things on the credenza, by the speakers: books, alcohol bottles, plants, a big box of chess.
1) Sources:
a. MacBook Pro (mid-2012) -> mini jack 3.5mm-RCA Cinch Cable and/or Streaming.
b. iPad / iPhone / Android (whatever other people bring) -> Streaming. Whatever people use: Spotify, YoutTube (if possible).
2) Processing [can be changed]:
a. Wiim Mini - for streaming from the sources.
b. DAC: Topping D10S.
3) Output:
a. Pioneer A-505R [old - google translatable specks I found: https://www.hifi-wiki.de/index.php/Pioneer_A-505_R].
b. 2x Elac Debut Reference DBR-62 [just bought].

p.s. I love great audio experiences and ... my dog.

 

[ZolaIII]

Q1; a, b(pull them out a bit), d(sub's). Measurement microphone (UMIK-1) and processor (DSP) along with digital crossover (when you get sub/sub's). For starters you can do DSP-ing with your laptop when you get mic with players like JRiver or Roon (or something else). Other than that try DBR62's with closed ports.
Welcome to ASR!

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Your situation is quite similar to my room - same dimensions and open on one side with a wall/windows on the other. I find the DBR62s seem to need almost no toe-in at all. I had them slightly angled in for a long time and found when I straightened them out I pretty much didn't need to EQ them for the room at all other than a couple of narrow bass filters to try and deal with issues. With them angled in more I had "messier" sound that needed more EQ to try and clean up.

 

[jae]

The answers are usually very simple:

• Add/tweak DSP
• Buy better speakers (+subs)/position them differently
• Fix or change the room

As @ZolaIII said, you need to buy a UMIK-1 or similar and learn to use REW to take measurements to have a better idea what you should/can change within the limitations of your setup.

 

[JktHifi]

Your living room is too open. No wall for the speaker to spread and bounce.

Here are the 3 steps:

1. Change your source to Qobuz/Tidal
2. Upgrade your DAC/Amp
3. Upgrade your speakers.

First step will make a lot of difference.

 

[Willem]

Here are the 3 steps:

1. Change your source to Qobuz/Tidal
2. Upgrade your DAC/Amp
3. Upgrade your speakers.

First step will make a lot of difference.

I doubt it, although some more amplifier power may be nice. Instead, I would first buy a Umik-1 microphone and measure in-room response with REW. Next, create a room eq curve in REW and upload this into an eq app on your Mac/source. If you really want to spend money you could add two small subwoofers. Using a DSPeaker X2 as a preamp/DAC dsp unit may be the easiest way to implement room eq and to integrate main speakers and subs. For a streamer, you could save money with a Chromecast Audio, if you can still get hold of one. Use its optical digital output into an X2 and you have come a long way to perfection. Add subs later on.

 

[Zapper]

I'll also add a vote for measuring the room response with REW software & Umik-1. Knowing where you stand on room response is the first step. Then you can have objective feedback for evaluating speaker placement and room treatment.

This is a cheap and productive place to start. Your equipment will sound good in a good room, and the best equipment can still sound bad in a bad room. So it makes sense to optimize that before spending money on higher spec components.

After that, you could add a powered subwoofer to enhance bass. A miniDSP as an active 2-way subwoofer crossover between your DAC and your amp (or between your WiiM and the amp without the DAC) will remove the deep bass from your main speakers, which will reduce distortion and allow them to play louder and cleaner. If you spend an extra $200 for a miniDSP with a Dirac Live license, you can then do sophisticated room correction in both frequency and time domains.

 

[CauliflowerEars]

Q1; a, b(pull them out a bit), d(sub's). Measurement microphone (UMIK-1) and processor (DSP) along with digital crossover (when you get sub/sub's). For starters you can do DSP-ing with your laptop when you get mic with players like JRiver or Roon (or something else). Other than that try DBR62's with closed ports.
Welcome to ASR!

The answers are usually very simple:

• Add/tweak DSP
• Buy better speakers (+subs)/position them differently
• Fix or change the room

As @ZolaIII said, you need to buy a UMIK-1 or similar and learn to use REW to take measurements to have a better idea what you should/can change within the limitations of your setup.

Thank you!
1. Seems DSP-ing is a big step I should explore.
2. Is adding the sub(s) more of a preference for somebody who likes deep bass, or it also gives other benefits? I quite like current amount of bass (so far).

Your situation is quite similar to my room - same dimensions and open on one side with a wall/windows on the other. I find the DBR62s seem to need almost no toe-in at all. I had them slightly angled in for a long time and found when I straightened them out I pretty much didn't need to EQ them for the room at all other than a couple of narrow bass filters to try and deal with issues. With them angled in more I had "messier" sound that needed more EQ to try and clean up.

Ah, I remember seeing a post, where they analysed the toe-ing of the DBR-62 and concluded it's better as you say: facing directly or maybe a little, 5* toe-in angle.
1.How did you EQ the speakers, anyway? I just have a bass and treble control on the amp.
2. Do you have a good way to protect the speakers from the sun? My window is facing West, so a lot of sun gets in in the summer. I was initially thinking about placing some sort of a screen right next to the speaker by the window. Maybe also placing the plants on a stand, so that they give more shade.

Your living room is too open. No wall for the speaker to spread and bounce.

Here are the 3 steps:

1. Change your source to Qobuz/Tidal
2. Upgrade your DAC/Amp
3. Upgrade your speakers.

First step will make a lot of difference.

Aha, thank you. Do you mean some sort of a wall between the living room and the kitchen would help? Could something temporary work? Would some sort of a foldable screen increase the audio quality much?
1. Through my latest audio journey, I've discovered Tidal is sth I should explore.
2. Any suggestions, which DAC and/or amp? Or maybe a way to determine, which DAC might be better (would finding the most affordable with just the right chip be enough?).
3. I just bought the DRB-62's. I guess the next upgrade is gonna be in a long time, so would probably have to explore the options then.

I doubt it, although some more amplifier power may be nice. Instead, I would first buy a Umik-1 microphone and measure in-room response with REW. Next, create a room eq curve in REW and upload this into an eq app on your Mac/source. If you really want to spend money you could add two small subwoofers. Using a DSPeaker X2 as a preamp/DAC dsp unit may be the easiest way to implement room eq and to integrate main speakers and subs. For a streamer, you could save money with a Chromecast Audio, if you can still get hold of one. Use its optical digital output into an X2 and you have come a long way to perfection. Add subs later on.

Thank you, seems getting hold of the UMIK-1 is a truely tested way.
1. How much power do you reckon?
2. As above: Is adding the sub(s) more of a preference for somebody who likes deep bass, or it also gives other benefits? I quite like current amount of bass (so far).
3. Do you mean this DSP Anti-Mode X2? Seems more expensive than the speakers. How much more quality do you think it would bring?
https://webstore.vlsi.fi/epages/vls...s/2015020901/Categories/DSPeaker/AntiMode_X21

 

[Midwest Blade]

Your speakers are fine and a great place to start, no need to upgrade here as they should provide several years of good sound.

Doing a bit of work with REW will at least give you measurements from which you can plan your improvements. I suggest doing this first before adding sub’s or any acoustic treatments.

Unless your totally hooked on Spotify, you may want to look at Quobuz/Tidal/AmazonHD as streaming options.

Once your front end is set up, you might search for an amp that provides the inputs you need and power to drive your speakers to the levels you like to listen.

Searching for amps and dacs to make changes or improvements in your sound is a bit of “hocus pocus” along with any special cables or speaker wires. Beware.

There are plenty of well built quality components listed in the test reports here at ASR. Set a budget and have fun.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Ah, I remember seeing a post, where they analysed the toe-ing of the DBR-62 and concluded it's better as you say: facing directly or maybe a little, 5* toe-in angle.
1.How did you EQ the speakers, anyway? I just have a bass and treble control on the amp.
2. Do you have a good way to protect the speakers from the sun? My window is facing West, so a lot of sun gets in in the summer. I was initially thinking about placing some sort of a screen right next to the speaker by the window. Maybe also placing the plants on a stand, so that they give more shade.

I use the Mathaudio plugin in Foobar for EQing.

As far as the sun is concerned, my apartment faces north and the sun doesn't ever shine in my windows directly, plus I have blinds and they are pretty much always drawn.

 

[Marc v E]

1d) Sub
2) Place the couch a bit from the back wall.
3) use eq to get the desired frequency response with either the pioneer (if it is an avr and has eq capabilities), the wiim streamer or a minidsp flex.

 

[ZolaIII]

@CauliflowerEars well let's say you roughly add one octave with pair of sub's and improve linearity of bass response.
You EQ with PEQ filters. Peaks up to 500 Hz and nominal if you need something above along with sloping them high/low self (similar to tone controls but without fixed croos frequency) and you do digital crossovers for sub's (high/low pass). Regarding sun and windows in generally get some thick curtains (dense fabric with absorption properties like natural wool for example) on that side.

 

[CauliflowerEars]

Your speakers are fine and a great place to start, no need to upgrade here as they should provide several years of good sound.

Doing a bit of work with REW will at least give you measurements from which you can plan your improvements. I suggest doing this first before adding sub’s or any acoustic treatments.

Unless your totally hooked on Spotify, you may want to look at Quobuz/Tidal/AmazonHD as streaming options.

Once your front end is set up, you might search for an amp that provides the inputs you need and power to drive your speakers to the levels you like to listen.

Searching for amps and dacs to make changes or improvements in your sound is a bit of “hocus pocus” along with any special cables or speaker wires. Beware.

There are plenty of well built quality components listed in the test reports here at ASR. Set a budget and have fun.

Thank you!
1. Yeah, seems like REW is the very first step.
2. I try not to subscribe to any services. Unfortunately, heard too many stories of people being double charged and no response from customer service (especially Tidal).
In terms of source quality, is it either paid super high quality services (Quobuz/Tidal/AmazonHD) or settling for free, but lower quality? (the whole field of connections/streaming, while keeping high quality is very new to me).
3. By 'hocus pocus', do you mean that without REW it'd be difficult to make proper changes or that it's all about having the alternative piece and A/B testing with the setup?
4. Well, I'm trying to get high on the quality axis, while not unnecessarily overshooting on the price (DBR-62 seemed a good example). I think good music and sound quality have a huge impact on life enjoyment and mental health. From what I was told, my old Pioneer amp isn't too bad, so now focusing on the DAC. Do you maybe have experience, if the Topping D10S is top sound quality in its price range, or maybe there's a better choice to improve the quality with not a huge investment?

@CauliflowerEars well let's say you roughly add one octave with pair of sub's and improve linearity of bass response.
You EQ with PEQ filters. Peaks up to 500 Hz and nominal if you need something above along with sloping them high/low self (similar to tone controls but without fixed croos frequency) and you do digital crossovers for sub's (high/low pass). Regarding sun and windows in generally get some thick curtains (dense fabric with absorption properties like natural wool for example) on that side.

Thanks. I will further investigate and hope will be able to understand and apply the EQ tip (apologies, not a sound engineer, just a music lover getting into the equipment).
Yes, I already have thick 300 gr/m2 curtains, but apart from great sound, I also enjoy sunlight (but sounds like with better equipment, I should maybe move to a dungeon).
So, I am searching for a solution that would protect the speakers from the damaging sun rays, but allow the light into the room, while keeping the sound quality.
What I initially had in mind was some sort of a screen, slightly bigger than the speakers, probably placed on the left of the left speaker, like a little 'wall', but not sure, if that would be good in terms of the sound quality ...

 

[ZolaIII]

@CauliflowerEars well you could try with two rows of curtains; a slimmer orange ones that will let in pleasurable amount of sunlight and lower Kelvin temperature and thicker one's that you rool to the speakers side to tame, protect and absorb impact when wanted/needed.
You should look to something as MiniDSP Flex as DSP processor and multichannel DAC (needed for digital crossovers when using sub's) but it ain't exactly cheap. For the first time I would advise you to try a PC multichannel (on MB embedded) sound card and some player supporting good tool chain like JRiver, Roon, Foobar 2000 (with pluggins)... If that's acceptable you. You can try with paid lossless subscription services (avoid MQA, God forbid) but it won't make much of a difference. If you don't want to use PC for streaming and such cheap Wiim Mini will do fine as transport (optical out to optical in on DAC or Flex).
As for what you get with sub's and where you have (can expect) that bottom octave this is suitable illustration.

Not cheap to get nor integrate but in the end we can have only so much of them (octaves).
Best regards and have a nice time.

 

[Midwest Blade]

Thank you!
1. Yeah, seems like REW is the very first step.
2. I try not to subscribe to any services. Unfortunately, heard too many stories of people being double charged and no response from customer service (especially Tidal).
In terms of source quality, is it either paid super high quality services (Quobuz/Tidal/AmazonHD) or settling for free, but lower quality? (the whole field of connections/streaming, while keeping high quality is very new to me).
3. By 'hocus pocus', do you mean that without REW it'd be difficult to make proper changes or that it's all about having the alternative piece and A/B testing with the setup?
4. Well, I'm trying to get high on the quality axis, while not unnecessarily overshooting on the price (DBR-62 seemed a good example). I think good music and sound quality have a huge impact on life enjoyment and mental health. From what I was told, my old Pioneer amp isn't too bad, so now focusing on the DAC. Do you maybe have experience, if the Topping D10S is top sound quality in its price range, or maybe there's a better choice to improve the quality with not a huge investment?


Thanks. I will further investigate and hope will be able to understand and apply the EQ tip (apologies, not a sound engineer, just a music lover getting into the equipment).
Yes, I already have thick 300 gr/m2 curtains, but apart from great sound, I also enjoy sunlight (but sounds like with better equipment, I should maybe move to a dungeon).
So, I am searching for a solution that would protect the speakers from the damaging sun rays, but allow the light into the room, while keeping the sound quality.
What I initially had in mind was some sort of a screen, slightly bigger than the speakers, probably placed on the left of the left speaker, like a little 'wall', but not sure, if that would be good in terms of the sound quality ...

I use Amazon HD simply as we are Prime members in our household, I have previously used Pandora, Spotify and Tidal. When Amazon Music appeared it was a no brainer to make the switch, I miss Pandora the most as it was simply incredible for music discovery. 16/44 as a base line is good enough for me, I hear no benefit in hi res content.

Hocus pocus is just a simple warning to beware of what you are buying. There is a large amount of salesmanship and promotion in the audio world, great value components are available. The D10 is a pretty solid dac, check the reviews here at ASR to help get your bearings.

Seems you are on the right track for now.

 

[JktHifi]

Aha, thank you. Do you mean some sort of a wall between the living room and the kitchen would help? Could something temporary work? Would some sort of a foldable screen increase the audio quality much?
1. Through my latest audio journey, I've discovered Tidal is sth I should explore.
2. Any suggestions, which DAC and/or amp? Or maybe a way to determine, which DAC might be better (would finding the most affordable with just the right chip be enough?).
3. I just bought the DRB-62's. I guess the next upgrade is gonna be in a long time, so would probably have to explore the options then.

Yes, it could be foldable screen. Not much but at least the noise from the kitchen while someone cooking doesn’t interfere.
1. Qobuz also good if your equipment doesn’t have MQA.
2. Find used DAC/Amp. I prefer integrated amp with USB input and bi-wiring speaker terminal (A+B), such as CXA-61
3. Speaker with impedance 4 or 6 ohm and bi-wire speaker terminal. I don’t like subwoofer (2.1 speakers setup). The low freq should be produced from both Left and Right speaker, not from others. If Left/Right speakers can not produced enough low-freq, it means bad system.

 

[Midwest Blade]

@CauliflowerEars, just looked at the specs for your Pioneer A505, decent all around and rated for 100w@ 6 ohms which should be plenty for the Elac in your space.
Time to sit back and listen!

 

[AdamG]

Firstly Welcome Aboard @CauliflowerEars !

I vote get a Sub or two. Get the Triangle dimensions more equal. Your MLP is 8.2 feet back from the speakers. What’s the distance from speaker to speaker? Measure from the centerline of each. Maybe toe in the mains if they are not already. Center speakers as far away from side wall reflection as possible. The right speaker looks close to the wall on the right. Try moving both speakers to the left until the distance from the left and right walls is equal.

These are all just easy suggestions. Trial and error is your friend here. Experiment with different placements. Remember we listen to our room far more than we listen to the speakers. The room boundaries play a major role and sometimes moving a speaker 1 foot can make a huge difference.

Measure room next. Have fun along the way. It’s a learning experience.

 

[wiiuu]

The most you will get when you start using isolated interconnects and power cables with isolated power outlets with filter (like Supra)

Streamer must be connected to an LPS, clean signal is the basis. If not there, you start searching ways to modify the crippled signal by the power signal noise.

Get rid of EF and EMF around all equipment and cables. This way only you will see the real potential of your equipment. Get an EMF tester for 100 bucks!

I got the most audible differences with LPS, isolated cables, disabling WIFI. Even your audio cripled mates will get shocked when they hear after you finish your job with DIY cables.

DIY your cables carefully wherever it goes insane on Budget. Its not difficult.

High End is based on clean signal.
Start experiencing by using the LPS on Streamer first.

 

[JRS]

I agree that the place to start is speaker placement. The stereo effect is based on having the c2c distance the same length as the distance from each to you--an equilateral triangle. I also think getting them farther off the back wall will help with getting the triangle right. If I am reading your floorplan right, sitting on the couch places you 3 meters from each speaker. Also is that a table the speakers are on? And perhaps you have a display between them? If its not too awkward I'd pull everything a foot or half meter forward off the wall--this has the advantage of getting better (more even) bass response and it will bring them closer to you. Now they are closer to 2m away. I'd measure that distance from speakers to your head position on couch. This will determine how far to separate the speakers. For the sake of argument lets say they are 2 meters away from your ears. Here I think moving the right speaker closer to the short wall and leave the L alone. If I am seeing things right, this will place the speaker near the stub wall but by pulling them forward, it will also be nearly flush, virtually eliminating reflections. But that location is just a suggestion, we could also pull the L speaker closer to its wall--the important thing to do is get your triangle closer to ideal. You can then shift it L or R to see where the best balance is. REW is your friend here, but your ears are important to use because REW won't tell you anything about imaging. For that we need patience and a couple of good recordings that preserve spatial relations between musicians. Acoustic jazz, or maybe if you like classical you could use a good recording of something like a string quartet. Nothing wrong with rock music per se but much of the time the separation of instruments is fake. I mean fake can be done well if some time delay is used in addition or instead of only left right balance (pan). The important thing is that the record is made in a natural space with minimal miking. If your speakers and triangle is right, you should be able to see into the venue.

The other thing I wonder about is your floor. If its bare (tile worst, wood bad, regular carpet better, deep pile carpet is best. Otherwise you will get too much floor reflection which can be fatiguing to listen to. Finally, we need to know what height the speakers are. Ideally they should be on 24 or 28 inch stands depending on whether you slouch into the sofa or sit very upright. We want the tweeters to be close to ear level.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth, and the best thing is it wont cost you a dime. BTW I like open floorplans as the bass has a chance to stretch a bit and we often have the opportunity to get speakers away from walls. It would be good if the sofa weren't up against the wall, but that's apartment living. And there are ways to mitigate this is its an issue. But lets find the triangle first.