How to improve dynamics? Transients and punch.

[MAB]

The speaker was reviewed at Stereophile by Kal Rubinson, with measurements!

Bowers & Wilkins 702 S2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

I think you roughly reproduce the same result in your room (I stretched the Stereophile graph to roughly match your graph, and superimposed my best dotted-line-drawing of the Stereophile on-axis measurement on top):

You do have room modes, and combing too, those are placement and treatment, you can move the speakers around, but like you said there are limitations... The speakers do have a midbass bump, which can be flattened with EQ. The speakers do have the characteristic B&W voicing in the midrange, partially caused by the tweeter with no baffle and by the shallow crossover slope. Lots of people with lots of rooms like the sound but I wonder if the midrange dip is going to slightly affect your perception of the bass as you describe it. Combined with the broad peak at at 120Hz, that may be where the problem lies for you.

The 120 Hz peak should be EQ'able, hardware or software. I am not sure if placement will get rid of it. The midrange dip is also due to the speaker but is more subtle and involves tradeoffs if you want to flatten it. I would try to EQ that bass hump, see if the midrange dip is tolerable.

 

[tommassing]

The speaker was reviewed at Stereophile by Kal Rubinson, with measurements!

Bowers & Wilkins 702 S2 loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

I think you roughly reproduce the same result in your room (I stretched the Stereophile graph to roughly match your graph, and superimposed my best dotted-line-drawing of the Stereophile on-axis measurement on top):
View attachment 273481
You do have room modes, and combing too, those are placement and treatment, you can move the speakers around, but like you said there are limitations... The speakers do have a midbass bump, which can be flattened with EQ. The speakers do have the characteristic voicing in the midrange, partially caused by the tweeter with no baffle and by the shallow crossover slope. Lots of people with lots of rooms like the sound but I wonder if the midrange dip is going to slightly affect your perception of the bass as you describe it. Combined with the broad peak at at 120Hz, that may be where the problem lies for you.

The 120 Hz peak should be EQ'able, hardware or software. I am not sure if placement will get rid of it. The midrange dip is also due to the speaker but is more subtle and involves tradeoffs if you want to flatten it. I would try to EQ that bass hump, see if the midrange dip is tolerable.

Wow! Great find! Ive been looking for a comprehensive review of these speakers for a long time. Im not sure how I missed this review.

Your comments are a huge help. I was feeling a little discouraged after reading some of the comments in this thread, mostly because it seemed I may have to start over with placement and treatments which had me reconsidering a total shake up of our interior design. My partner was not excited about that. Lol. Seeing Stereophile's assessment leads me to believe that I am really just looking for some tweaks, not a complete overhaul. My next steps will be to move speakers around, even with limited options, to see if there is some improvement. I know I have a bad first reflection due to a window, so I may look into an acoustic curtain there. I'm also aware of two spots in corners where I could use bass traps. That's a start. More room measurements to follow.

 

[tommassing]

Hardware EQs will just add one more component to your signal chain, potentially further decreasing your SINAD.
I would strongly recommend using a PC as the source with any DAC that you can see in the upper section of the measurement chart on this forum.

Measure Left and Right channels separately then click on the EQ button in REW. Apply Var smoothing with the gear icon. Then set the target to taste (either you boost the low end and cut the high end or you leave the target totally flat and then apply some shelf filters later on). Set the target level to 65dB, Match range 20Hz to 20000Hz, set all boosting to 0, set flatness to 1 and hit Match Response to Target. That will produce the EQ filters needed to match your frequency response to the target you defined.
You can see each filter when you click on the EQ Filters button. You can either apply these values in an EQ (hardware or software) or even much better to export the correction into a wav file and use it in a convolver (that will ensure maximum precision).
This is just to start your journey

I will try exactly that. Thank you so much for your advise.

 

[Chrispy]

Is it with particular recordings or across the board? That's the first place to get dynamics etc. Speakers next.....and the B&Ws can certainly be improved upon.

 

[tommassing]

Is it with particular recordings or across the board? That's the first place to get dynamics etc. Speakers next.....and the B&Ws can certainly be improved upon.

It is worse with some recordings. The problem is not nearly as bad with well engineered recordings.

 

[Chrispy]

It is worse with some recordings. The problem is not nearly as bad with well engineered recordings.

Sounds normal You sure with good recordings you have an issue at all?

 

[kemmler3D]

I agree with MAB's advice, and I'd personally suggest putting 1-2dB of boost in the >3khz region, esp. above 5khz, even if you EQ out the midbass hump. If you're looking for more subjective snap and transient attack, having a limp treble range isn't going to help. Getting rid of the 45hz and midbass hump should go a long way, though.

 

[Deleted member 48726]

Remove that 45 Hz peak and try to EQ so the mid to high mid becomes more flat. I find that "transient punch" kick drum etc. is sounding more dynamic with a flat EQ through the mid to high mid. Careful not to high shelf the low frequencies too much as well.

 

[Rja4000]

Moving the speakers does not give a very discernable difference in sound

What usually makes some difference is distance to walls. If the speaker is too close from the back wall, as an example, you'll loose some bass impact. 10-20cm may change the sound enough to be noticeable.

 

[ZolaIII]

Wow! Great find! Ive been looking for a comprehensive review of these speakers for a long time. Im not sure how I missed this review.

Your comments are a huge help. I was feeling a little discouraged after reading some of the comments in this thread, mostly because it seemed I may have to start over with placement and treatments which had me reconsidering a total shake up of our interior design. My partner was not excited about that. Lol. Seeing Stereophile's assessment leads me to believe that I am really just looking for some tweaks, not a complete overhaul. My next steps will be to move speakers around, even with limited options, to see if there is some improvement. I know I have a bad first reflection due to a window, so I may look into an acoustic curtain there. I'm also aware of two spots in corners where I could use bass traps. That's a start. More room measurements to follow.

I don't see the 120 Hz peek? I see 45 Hz one which is room.
Your receiver has a very comprehensive DSP section. Read the manual starting page 108! Start by addressing the speakers bass hump putting the tone control for bass to - 6, put volume trim to - 6 per each source you are using.
Then did measurements again.
Now do a manual PEQ trough one of the interfaces (Web interface would be best because I don't know if other on screen or Musicast support it).

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

If you don't know to calculate them someone hire will assist you.
When you are done enable loudness control.

 

[audiofooled]

Wow! Great find! Ive been looking for a comprehensive review of these speakers for a long time. Im not sure how I missed this review.

Your comments are a huge help. I was feeling a little discouraged after reading some of the comments in this thread, mostly because it seemed I may have to start over with placement and treatments which had me reconsidering a total shake up of our interior design. My partner was not excited about that. Lol. Seeing Stereophile's assessment leads me to believe that I am really just looking for some tweaks, not a complete overhaul. My next steps will be to move speakers around, even with limited options, to see if there is some improvement. I know I have a bad first reflection due to a window, so I may look into an acoustic curtain there. I'm also aware of two spots in corners where I could use bass traps. That's a start. More room measurements to follow.

Aren't your speakers 704 S2?

 

[RobL]

704 S2 measurements

 

[tommassing]

Aren't your speakers 704 S2?

Yes, they are. Once I started reading the review it became clear it wasn't a review for my speakers. I've still never really found any comprehensive review of my speakers anywhere.

I bought these speakers after listening to them at the Listen Up showroom in Boulder CO. I liked their smaller footprint and respectable sound. Once I brought them home, they just didn't sound the same in my room, which I sort of expected, but its a significant difference.

 

[tommassing]

I don't see the 120 Hz peek? I see 45 Hz one which is room.
Your receiver has a very comprehensive DSP section. Read the manual starting page 108! Start by addressing the speakers bass hump putting the tone control for bass to - 6, put volume trim to - 6 per each source you are using.
Then did measurements again.
Now do a manual PEQ trough one of the interfaces (Web interface would be best because I don't know if other on screen or Musicast support it).

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

If you don't know to calculate them someone hire will assist you.
When you are done enable loudness control.

I understand why one would turn bass down in the tone controls, but why set the volume trim at -6db?

 

[ZolaIII]

I understand why one would turn bass down in the tone controls, but why set the volume trim at -6db?

Try it out. On Yamaha stereo amplifiers at least it improves quality of bass.

 

[MAB]

I don't see the 120 Hz peek? I see 45 Hz one which is room.
Your receiver has a very comprehensive DSP section. Read the manual starting page 108! Start by addressing the speakers bass hump putting the tone control for bass to - 6, put volume trim to - 6 per each source you are using.
Then did measurements again.
Now do a manual PEQ trough one of the interfaces (Web interface would be best because I don't know if other on screen or Musicast support it).

Yamaha AVENTAGE 5200 Series 11CH Processor/Amplifier Review

Yamaha is on their 3rd generation of separates in the Aventage line with their new 11-channel CX-A5200 AV Processor and MX-A5200 amplifier. Read our review to find out if they are a worthy successor.

www.audioholics.com

If you don't know to calculate them someone hire will assist you.
When you are done enable loudness control.

Maybe closer to 100 Hz, but I thought it is pretty clear the measurements match the actual FR of the actual speaker. They measure lust like a pair of B&W 702 S2 should measure!

And have the typical cancelation effects due to placement.

Monitor Placement - Genelec.com

To create the ideal listening experience, several aspects need to be taken into account when placing the monitors within the listening space. First, you need to identify the listening area within the space and consider where the listener will be placed in relation to the space as well as the...

www.genelec.com

 

[ZolaIII]

@MAB yes you can call it that, when it's so wide I call it a hump. That's what tone controls - bass - 6 is for as it perfectly matches it and there is no low/high self filter on the AVR. Besides I want to see how much it will help with room influenced peak @ 45 Hz. If he does and post's measurements with bass - 6 dB calculate him peak PEQ filters (Q based) as I have to go.

 

[MAB]

@MAB yes you can call it that, when it's so wide I call it a hump. That's what tone controls - bass - 6 is for as it perfectly matches it and there is no low/high self filter on the AVR. Besides I want to see how much it will help with room influenced peak @ 45 Hz. If he does and post's measurements with bass - 6 dB calculate him peak PEQ filters (Q based) as I have to go.

Yes, like I said in my original post I called it a bump, then a peak, then said to EQ it because it is EQ'able for sure.. I think the words are roughly equivalent, but in case... I include a picture!. But the cancellation dips are not able to be EQ'ed, neither are the room modes. I think we are saying the same thing!

 

[ZolaIII]

@MAB that's OK, I wanted to see if we take a part of the energy (and getting a bass in line while leaving limited number of PEQ's free) will the room mood peek get lower before future trying to get it under control with PEQ.

 

[MAB]

@MAB that's OK, I wanted to see if we take a part of the energy (and getting a bass in line while leaving limited number of PEQ's free) will the room mood peek get lower before future trying to get it under control with PEQ.

Agree, good point. Yes, lots of extra energy there to use elsewhere.