• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

How to Hot Rod a Denon AVR-X3600H?

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
Yeah the Denon has beaten other avr , on the bench.

However more.to it with gear synergy, ie Denon doesn't match with b&w speakers, bit a arcam avr does, even though the arcam avr failed badly on the bench.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
Of course they do. You are mistaking what people imagine they hear with whats actually there.

No sorry I disagree with that. It's one thing to use two tests on Denon and Yamaha as a guide, to show one has more power, bit I would not base that solely, I'd still.want to try both out. I would know one tested better but not if it worked well with my speakers.

Like I said that Denon 3600 owner not impressed.with hifi sound from it so looking at stereo interegrated.
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
Yeah the Denon has beaten other avr , on the bench.

However more.to it with gear synergy, ie Denon doesn't match with b&w speakers, bit a arcam avr does, even though the arcam avr failed badly on the bench.

This is typical audiophile nonsense. Gear doesn't need to "match" with speakers as long as it has enough capability. If you have lousy speakers like B&W, then yes, the typical audiophile mantra is to try to match low fidelity colored gear, cables, tubes, etc to offset the poor measured performance, fiddle endlessly with placement, room treatment, toe in etc etc etc to try to reduce the poor baseline performance. Start with quality speakers and any well designed, audibly transparent amp or AVR like Denon will sound perfect.

As an example, for those that want high fidelity, this is one of many examples of why B&W is not the right answer:

fr_on1530.gif
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
I would know one tested better but not if it worked well with my speakers.

Yeah, thats not true either. If you know the impedance and power handling capability of the speakers, the measured performance of the AVR will clearly show if it has the capability to properly drive the speakers.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
Go to avforums and look through Denon thread.

I don't own the Denon have lexicon mc-8 with ATI power amps
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
So you're saying all amps sound the same?
Why on earth would you think I said that? There are lots of poorly designed amps with high distortion and poor frequency response. Some amps cannot adequately drive a very low impedance load, or just don't have enough power.

However, if you want to assign some sensible stipulations such as, an amp with inaudible noise and distortion driven within its clean output capability, yup, 5 watts from a Denon AVR isn't going to sound any different in real life than 5 watts from a $3,000 Benchmark. Many will imagine a difference, but it won't show up in an accurate comparison that removes bias.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
Well I do know my old Denon avd-2000 sounds different and inferior to the harmon/kardon adp-303

And arcam alpha 9 is different to audiolab 8000s in sound
 
OP
HionHiFi

HionHiFi

Active Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
209
Likes
163
Location
Carmichael, CA
Measurements doesn't show if it sounds good or bad, just how it performs ie power output etc. and the other person bought a 3600

Typically avr are poor relative to stereo integrateds.
I think it’s important to point out that for decades now we’ve had a set of measurements for both audio electronics and speakers that we know correlate well to good sound. Products that don’t perform well on these measurements typically don’t sound good in practice. Those that measure well typically do. The old audiophile excuse that 2-ch integrates sound better than AVR’s just don’t hold water anymore. I see it as just repeating what you’ve heard for years and years from audiophiles. It’s fantasyland.

To say nothing of the inclusion of room correction, HDMI, streaming audio, whole house network audio, amplification, high quality DAC’s, Google Home, Alexa, Apple automation, AVR’s outclass most 2-channel integrated handily. Having Audyssey MultEQ32 alone and being able to deal with your room will have a greater impact on the sound of your system than any “high end” audio cable or speaker cable.

Just look to the many audio companies who espouse using measurements to design solid audio products: Paul Barton at PSB, John Dunlavy at Dunlavy (now out of business), JBL and Revel, Snell (now out of business) and others. Those companies have been universally praised for their neutrality. They used measurements to ensure their designs were neutral, like a window into the music adding low to no colorations onto the audio signal, ie, the holy grail of audiophiles, Peter Aczel had been preaching this from his magazine HiFi Critic for decades. Bob Carver demonstrated this measurement fact back on the 80’s. Good sound for the most part is a known quantity these days and it can be demonstrated. We know what correlates to good sound.
 
OP
HionHiFi

HionHiFi

Active Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
209
Likes
163
Location
Carmichael, CA
No sorry I disagree with that. It's one thing to use two tests on Denon and Yamaha as a guide, to show one has more power, bit I would not base that solely, I'd still.want to try both out. I would know one tested better but not if it worked well with my speakers.

Like I said that Denon 3600 owner not impressed.with hifi sound from it so looking at stereo interegrated.
So you basing your information on some other audiophiles experience with the 3600?
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
"To say nothing of the inclusion of room correction, HDMI, streaming audio, whole house network audio, amplification, high quality DAC’s, Google Home, Alexa, Apple automation, AVR’s outclass most 2-channel integrated handily. Having Audyssey MultEQ32 alone and being able to deal with your room will have a greater impact on the sound of your system than any “high end” audio cable or speaker cable."

I don't need hdmi, streaming audio, whole house network, amplfication, Google home,, Alexa, apple for my 2ch Audio system. Squeeze boxes in each room better than av amp streaming

Why do some some people disable audessey for 2ch music?

My two channel hifi is basically a volume control, sounds great. So does my audiolab 8000q onto the ATI amp. No tone controls, no eq, nothing.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
So you basing your information on some other audiophiles experience with the 3600?

Just going by another owner. He said not very good for hifi

Another one said it's very good.

From my own experience avr are not great for hifi.
 
OP
HionHiFi

HionHiFi

Active Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
209
Likes
163
Location
Carmichael, CA
Well I do know my old Denon avd-2000 sounds different and inferior to the harmon/kardon adp-303

And arcam alpha 9 is different to audiolab 8000s in sound
Yes. They very well may and I’d bet you could identify why with measurements.
 
OP
HionHiFi

HionHiFi

Active Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2018
Messages
209
Likes
163
Location
Carmichael, CA
I don't know of anyone that listens on a regular or even short term basis at or above reference level i.e MV of 0. If you get 1.5 volts from the pre-outs at reference level, I don't see anyone running into an issue with distortion rising on the pre-outs even without the amps disconnected. The loudest I usually will watch a movie is -10 and that is much louder than anyone in my family cares to watch. On music, by -5 MV, it is loud enough to cause hearing damage over prolonged periods. It's like club level loud. So again, if the only time the pre-outs would exceed 1.5 volts is above reference, its a complete non issue on both the 3600 AND the half price 3500 that also has excellent pre-out performance below 1.5 volts.

Having said that, if you want more clean power than the Denon can provide, and you want the assurance of the cleanest signal possible from the Denon(which I completely understand as a hobbyist), then pick up a Monoprice Monolith 3/5/7 channel amp. It achieves full power with 1.43 volts according to the Audioholics review. 200/300 watts and substantial burst capability, excellent measured performance, manufactured by ATI, good warranty. It's cheap enough that it would almost be foolish to not get the 3 channel since more power for the center channel is pretty important, but for a couple of steak dinners more you can get the 5 channel.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-monolith-7-channel-amplifier-review

Although currently out of stock at Monoprice, the 5 channel is listed at $1299. Thats a crazy good deal, and seems even cheaper than before.
Thanks Bear123. I listen generally at low volumes. Occasionally, I’ll listen up 85db on the SPL meter.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
A good amp improves sound at all levels especially in the bass department.
 

Bear123

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 27, 2019
Messages
796
Likes
1,370
Unsubstantiated subjective opinions that are unlikely to be true don't hold a lot of weight on a forum that emphasizes facts.
 

rccarguy

Senior Member
Joined
May 9, 2020
Messages
373
Likes
133
Well try a low powered and high powered amplfiier with a pre and listen for yourself.

And try a avr and a stereo integrated.

Yes bench tests are great but won't take them.as holy grail.


And neither take what hifi as holy grail either
Use both.
 

Zedly

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 9, 2020
Messages
191
Likes
351
Thanks Bear123. I listen generally at low volumes. Occasionally, I’ll listen up 85db on the SPL meter.

If you listen at low levels with 2 speakers, then you probably don't need an external amplifier. Your speakers have a sensitivity of 88 dB, so if you sit 2.5 meters away, 1 watt of power gives you 80 dB at the listening position. The Denon puts out 105 W into 8 Ohms, so you'll get more power into your 4 ohm speakers. That much power will give you a 20 dB boost, so the internal amp will give you up to 100 dB at your listening position. Since you rarely listen at above 85 dB, you have plenty of headroom on the internal amps. So I wouldn't bother with an external amp in your situation.
 

preload

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 19, 2020
Messages
1,554
Likes
1,701
Location
California
1.5v is normally 80(or 0db in the other mode) on the volume setting according to the X3500H review.

I'm still not quite following. The volume setting just determines the signal gain. Are we saying that at a digital input level of 0dB (i.e. full volume), the pre-out voltage will be 1.5V when the volume control is set at "80" (="0")?
 
Top Bottom