Yes, but the authors are specifically talking about cardioid subwoofers.It is very interesting indeed, glad ya took the time to read it.
And agree, 5 full range can be pricey (I know, paying for such a system now!), but worth it! Will in fact have 5x full range cardioid towers
Soundfield does full range cardioid, as does I believe GGNTKT, Gethain, and Genelec. May be others I am not aware of.
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How to find what music has stereo bass (with EasyEffects)
- Thread starter bachatero
- Start date
Well, you only want cardioid down to approx 40Hz, after which the benefit becomes negligible. Monopole subs take over at 40 and below. Which is exactly how my system will be setup. Please see my “end game quest” thread for more details
TheZebraKilledDarwin
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It seems that after years this topic is finally getting some traction which is good.
I think that with the enveloping effect, attention must be paid to whether it's a desired or undesired effect (depending on on which channels it occurs).
I come from the production side and "stereo bass" - or more specific: uncorrelated bass - is a given in surround production. IMO it plays a big role for an impressive theatrical sound (more later).
For anyone interested I made a small Dolby HD test file of 40 seconds (attached to a black-screen-video) so that everybody with a 7.1 system can check, if, and at which crossover frequency, he thinks an enveloping effect kicks in in their setup:
The test file contains one channel of a stereo mix routed to Lrs (left rear surr.) or Rrs.
All other channels are muted.
The intention is to make it easier to hear at which crossover frequency one might experience a kind of enveloping effect: if/when you notice that the lows of the channel spread out.
For the test I recommend to set the XO frequencies of all speakers to the same frequency in the AVR.
I hear the following:
As XO increases, at some point it starts to drag the lower instruments more into the room, the perceived "weight" at the the location of the speaker becomes lighter, while the bass seems to spread more into the room. It reminds me a bit of image smearing of a phantom sound source with a sub too far to one side.
If you also can hear it with your setup, I would like to draw the following conclusions from this:
1. A kind of enveloping effect is noticeable even with just one channel due to a (too high) XO and sub placement too far away from the speaker.
2. Therefore we must be even more careful with dual mono bass reproduction with two subwoofers. A perceived wider stereo base could result in a deteriorated phantom center if the subs are not placed close to the speakers.
If this "stereo-sub" thing is done on the left and right channels, if they carry phantom center signals, and the subs are placed far off, the phantom center could suffer massively.
3. On the other hand, if it is done in a multi-channel setup, on the left and right channels (or on LR upmixed stereo after C-channel extraction), or done with the surround channels, and if the center has its own dedicated subwoofer, the out-of-phase bass components, which are present in the (surround or upmixed stereo) mix should be perceived as if the width/depth of these channels was magnified (IMO that's why good multichannel setups in studios and dub stages do not sum bass to mono - stereo width of low f is important - highpassing thunder, wind, atmos @80 Hz and monoizing it for theatrical soundtracks?; TV productions with an ITU 5.1 setup handle things differently though).
Btw everyone should be familiar with this "stereo bass" effect even without knowing it consciously:
I would describe it as one of the beautiful effects in large theatres. Especially after longer periods of dialogue, which is very localized and center focused, when a massive, deep and wide width in the (fullrange) surround field is setting in. The contrast from the mono center to bassy width and depth just sounds cool.
I think that with the enveloping effect, attention must be paid to whether it's a desired or undesired effect (depending on on which channels it occurs).
I come from the production side and "stereo bass" - or more specific: uncorrelated bass - is a given in surround production. IMO it plays a big role for an impressive theatrical sound (more later).
For anyone interested I made a small Dolby HD test file of 40 seconds (attached to a black-screen-video) so that everybody with a 7.1 system can check, if, and at which crossover frequency, he thinks an enveloping effect kicks in in their setup:
The test file contains one channel of a stereo mix routed to Lrs (left rear surr.) or Rrs.
All other channels are muted.
The intention is to make it easier to hear at which crossover frequency one might experience a kind of enveloping effect: if/when you notice that the lows of the channel spread out.
For the test I recommend to set the XO frequencies of all speakers to the same frequency in the AVR.
I hear the following:
As XO increases, at some point it starts to drag the lower instruments more into the room, the perceived "weight" at the the location of the speaker becomes lighter, while the bass seems to spread more into the room. It reminds me a bit of image smearing of a phantom sound source with a sub too far to one side.
If you also can hear it with your setup, I would like to draw the following conclusions from this:
1. A kind of enveloping effect is noticeable even with just one channel due to a (too high) XO and sub placement too far away from the speaker.
2. Therefore we must be even more careful with dual mono bass reproduction with two subwoofers. A perceived wider stereo base could result in a deteriorated phantom center if the subs are not placed close to the speakers.
If this "stereo-sub" thing is done on the left and right channels, if they carry phantom center signals, and the subs are placed far off, the phantom center could suffer massively.
3. On the other hand, if it is done in a multi-channel setup, on the left and right channels (or on LR upmixed stereo after C-channel extraction), or done with the surround channels, and if the center has its own dedicated subwoofer, the out-of-phase bass components, which are present in the (surround or upmixed stereo) mix should be perceived as if the width/depth of these channels was magnified (IMO that's why good multichannel setups in studios and dub stages do not sum bass to mono - stereo width of low f is important - highpassing thunder, wind, atmos @80 Hz and monoizing it for theatrical soundtracks?; TV productions with an ITU 5.1 setup handle things differently though).
Btw everyone should be familiar with this "stereo bass" effect even without knowing it consciously:
I would describe it as one of the beautiful effects in large theatres. Especially after longer periods of dialogue, which is very localized and center focused, when a massive, deep and wide width in the (fullrange) surround field is setting in. The contrast from the mono center to bassy width and depth just sounds cool.
Last edited:
Sokel
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I said the same thing time and time again:
A baritone's voice at its lows through a system of high-crossed mono lows feels like is coming from a mouth the size of a cave.
"Proportions" is the key word.
TheZebraKilledDarwin
Active Member
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Don't tell consumers with monoized 80 Hz XO...
Ls/Rs:
(MI:8)
10s video:
Ls/Rs:
(MI:8)
10s video:
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