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How to evaluate a ELAC Navis bookshelf (powered speaker) versus the KEF LS-50 Wireless 2 (active speaker)?

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mel

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Most around here would say DSP is better. Look at all the interest in DSP powered speakers like Genelec. Just because I don't completely understand what you are thinking doesn't make you wrong. You could be on to something.
I am a software developer. I took some audio physics classes in college. I am under the impression that DSP is better, provided the audio path is unconstrained by DSP capabilities. I guess a 24 bit / 192Hz DSP path is future proof enough.

For example, I don't know if MQA processing slows it down. I only came across a few MQA files that relate to my tastes, so MQA seems irrelevant today. I might change my mind in the future, if persuaded otherwise. I really don't know.

I really don't know enough about the constraints to render an intelligent opinion. I am trying to understand the logical impact of DSP functions, before the physical constraints. That's why I start from the rhythm/melody/harmony layer, before the measurement layer.

My approach is breakdown the processing into layers. Understand one layer, then add the next layer of complexity. Keep the layers separate. Otherwise, sound is a complicated spaghetti bowl that keeps me chasing my tail.
 
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Ron Texas

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@mel read some of the reviews around here. Try the JBL 708P, any Revel, Genelec, Adam and so on. There is an incedible amount of wisdom around here. Just look at some different approaches and points of view. It's an eye opener. LS50's with or without internal amps are for small rooms. I consider subs to be necessary. I never liked mine until I had 2 subs.
 
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mel

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@mel read some of the reviews around here. Try the JBL 708P, any Revel, Genelec, Adam and so on. There is an incedible amount of wisdom around here. Just look at some different approaches and points of view. It's an eye opener. LS50's with or without internal amps are for small rooms. I consider subs to be necessary. I never liked mine until I had 2 subs.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about two subs. A requirement, based on my RME DAC attached to AudioEngine A3 with two REL subwoofers. The A3 is a powered speaker.
 
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mel

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I wholeheartedly agree with you about two subs. A requirement, based on my RME DAC attached to AudioEngine A3 with two REL subwoofers. The A3 is a powered speaker.
The RME DAC has sophisticated KEF-like functions that affect the analog output. I am reluctant to adjust them, because I generally mess something up. I have a habit of resetting the parameters, after I discover what I messed up.

Obviously, the AudioEngine A3 is not bi-amped like the KEF. I cannot simulate that feature. The AudioEngine A3 is more similar to the ELAC Navis powered architecture. The ELAC Navis is tri-amped, due to three drivers. I assume both the ELAC and KEF amping is optimized. I suspect ELAC has an optimization advantage with tri-amps, rather than KEF bi-amps. Whether the class AB and D and BASH configurations makes much difference is unclear to me. I suspect not in a general sense, but perhaps in a specific instance.

Concentric tweeter and midrange drivers are present in both KEF and ELAC speakers. ELAC has the additional woofer. The KEF DSP can synchronize drivers, which the ELAC analog crossovers cannot. From a musical layer perspective, perhaps the KEF may have sonic advantages due to the following. Rhythm, melody and harmony may be improved by KEF active DSP to some degree by:
  • much steeper crossover slopes that reduce distortion
  • delay and phase correction is applied between drivers
  • more amplifiers may generate greater near field noise
    • Additional ELAC power (300 vs. 230 watts) may be excessive for me, because I listen at short distances, low volume levels and in small spaces.

The RME DAC works so well that I do not perceive the need to tweak the equalizer parameters.

It's also unclear to me how a high quality DAC is significantly better/worse than the equivalent DSP processing in the digital domain.

Evidently, the double DACing the RME to the KEF does not impose significant blurring. I suppose I would attach my Mac M1 via USB directly to the KEF. I find Tidal to be unreliable software, so I do not trust it. Tidal even caused me to cancel Roon, because it messed up Roon so badly. I might be forced to connect the KEF via analog output from the RME, if Tidal insists on resetting my parameters every time I change bluetooth or some other network connection. An iPhone developer's use case is different than most Mac OS users. Tidal does not play nice with Mac OS and may negate a direct digital USB attachment to the KEF for my use case.

I compared my RME and AV DSP DAC on my lowly soundbar. The soundbar sounds fantastic attached to the RME, unlike the AV pre-amp functions.

For all these reasons, I believe the best approach is to divide the product solutions into layers. Compare the different layers of each product. Moreover, the logical music layer is proper starting point. Answering now the ELAC and KEF architectures affect the musical layer of rhythm, melody and harmony seems like the most productive starting point to me.
 
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mel

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Wynton Marsalis' rendition of Caravan on Marsalis Standard Time Vol 1 is a good exercise. Caravan is a jazz standard. 136 beats per minute, or allegro. Fast response and synchronized drivers is probably more important than powerful loudness. My guess is active DSP (KEF) is better suited to rendering Caravan than a powered architecture (ELAC).

Drums are especially challenging on this piece, as demonstrated in the Whiplash soundtrack.

The drums are orchestrated differently in the Marsalis and soundtrack renditions. The drums are more prominent in the soundtrack. I assume the movie and soundtrack recording sound stage positions are the same.
  • The cymbals do not sound natural on the Caravan track on my AudioEngine A3 system, because they sound too faint and indistinct. I strain to find the clarity I expect, because the cymbals seem further away from the drums than should be.
  • The soundtrack snares on the first track sound great.
  • The soundtrack rhythm and harmony sound tight.
  • The soundtrack melody lacks the loneliness of being in an African desert caravan, like Ellington intended the melody to convey, but Marsalis captures it.
  • The soundtrack melody lacks the exotic Middle Eastern sound Ellington intended, but Marsalis captures it.
  • The soundtrack melody does not appear to tell the same story as the lyrics.
    • I am unsure whether the audio equipment, recording or composition is responsible.
    • The Nat King Cole rendition is easier to understand because the lyrics are sung.
      • The melody much better expresses the message in the lyrics.
  • Playing the Tidal search results for Caravan, or any music piece, might be an effective way to compare the effects of active and powered architectures.
    • How accurately does the hardware render the artists and/or location?
 
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mel

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My first active (KEF LS-50W) versus powered (ELAC Navis) rhythm test is naturalness of instruments at allegro (136 bpm). Hopefully, any type of distortion can be measured when approached from the physical layer, rather than logical musical layer.
  • Cymbals
  • Drums
  • Bass
  • Brass
    • Trombone

The test consists of a dozen Caravan renditions from Tidal, stored as a playlist. I expect a significant improvement in the naturalness of cymbal sounds at allegro (136 bpm) from an active system compared to a powered architecture.

The analog crossover and/or tweeter on my AudioEngine A3 (powered speakers) does not reproduce cymbal sounds well at allegro (136 bpm). I compared over a dozen Caravan renditions from Tidal on two sets of speakers. The AudioEngine A3 powered architecture is probably much slower or noisier than a true active DSP architecture, when crossover and amplifier processing is performed in the digital, rather than analog domain.

I expect the rhythm performance on the KEF active DSP to be substantially better than the AudioEngine A3 performance. I base this expectation on well-known active DSP architecture advantages for crossover and driver performance:
  • much steeper crossover slopes that reduce distortion
  • delay and phase correction is applied between drivers
  • I am unsure how much near field noise amplifiers will produce.
    • When audible, the noise is a slight hiss sound on my AudioEngine A3s, or any other type of speakers.
 
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VonGoethe

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FYI
The Kefs LS50 W II have no USB in.
The USB port is only for service.
 
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mel

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The owners manual is a little vague. Does the HDMI port accept a connection from a laptop via USB adapter, or is the HDMI port strictly limited to TV HDMI ARC connections?

The AUX port would be one fallback, if the Tidal connection from the KEF app becomes as annoying as Tidal is from my Mac.
 
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mel

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My first active (KEF LS-50W) versus powered (ELAC Navis) rhythm test is naturalness of instruments at allegro (136 bpm). Hopefully, any type of distortion can be measured when approached from the physical layer, rather than logical musical layer.
  • Cymbals
  • Drums
  • Bass
  • Brass
    • Trombone

The test consists of a dozen Caravan renditions from Tidal, stored as a playlist. I expect a significant improvement in the naturalness of cymbal sounds at allegro (136 bpm) from an active system compared to a powered architecture.

The analog crossover and/or tweeter on my AudioEngine A3 (powered speakers) does not reproduce cymbal sounds well at allegro (136 bpm). I compared over a dozen Caravan renditions from Tidal on two sets of speakers. The AudioEngine A3 powered architecture is probably much slower or noisier than a true active DSP architecture, when crossover and amplifier processing is performed in the digital, rather than analog domain.

I expect the rhythm performance on the KEF active DSP to be substantially better than the AudioEngine A3 performance. I base this expectation on well-known active DSP architecture advantages for crossover and driver performance:
  • much steeper crossover slopes that reduce distortion
  • delay and phase correction is applied between drivers
  • I am unsure how much near field noise amplifiers will produce.
    • When audible, the noise is a slight hiss sound on my AudioEngine A3s, or any other type of speakers.
An easy way to find the tempo of many music pieces appears in the titles on this Sony Great Performances album. The instrument often appears in the title, also. An example piece about the naturalness of a piano at a fast tempo. The naturalness of a piano resonance and decay can often be quite revealing. The piano and drums are useful to evaluate sound because both instruments span the frequency spectrum.

Tidal searches using "allegro" as the search term will also provide a useful list. Tidal searches also provide other useful information to create a playlist to evaluate fast tempo performance.

Finding great equipment is both a pleasure-seeking and truth-seeking mission.

  • Larghissimo – very, very slow (24 bpm and under)
  • Adagissimo – very slow
  • Grave – very slow (25–45 bpm)
  • Largo – slow and broad (40–60 bpm)
  • Lento – slow (45–60 bpm)
  • Larghetto – rather slow and broad (60–66 bpm)
  • Adagio – slow with great expression[10] (66–76 bpm)
  • Adagietto – slower than andante (72–76 bpm) or slightly faster than adagio (70–80 bpm)
  • Andante – at a walking pace (76–108 bpm)
  • Andantino – slightly faster than andante (although, in some cases, it can be taken to mean slightly slower than andante) (80–108 bpm)
  • Marcia moderato – moderately, in the manner of a march[11][12] (83–85 bpm)
  • Moderato – at a moderate speed (108–120 bpm)
  • Andante moderato – between andante and moderato (thus the name) (92–112 bpm)
  • Allegretto – by the mid-19th century, moderately fast (112–120 bpm); see paragraph above for earlier usage
  • Allegro moderato – close to, but not quite allegro (116–120 bpm)
  • Allegro – fast, quick, and bright (120–156 bpm) (molto allegro is slightly faster than allegro, but always in its range; 124-156 bpm)
  • Vivace – lively and fast (156–176 bpm)
  • Vivacissimo – very fast and lively (172–176 bpm)
  • Allegrissimo or Allegro vivace – very fast (172–176 bpm)
  • Presto – very, very fast (168–200 bpm)
  • Prestissimo – even faster than presto (200 bpm and over)

Presto (168-200 bpm) example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Étude_Op._25,_No._1_(Chopin)

Technically, the piece requires dexterity to play the six-tuples fast enough, and to be able to move the hand across intervals as large as a 13th in the middle. The inner voice figures consist of repeated figures of arpeggiated chords. Schumann commented on Chopin's subtle emphasis on certain melodies throughout this piece.[3] One difficulty the étude presents is the voicing of the inner counter-melodies. The three annotated studies by Leopold Godowsky on this etude exploit this aspect of this piece and also introduce the student to further possibilities in the Chopin original.
 
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mel

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Dynamic pieces that stress my poor AudioEngine A3 powered speaker.

From the logical layer viewpoint, DSP crossover functionality is conceptually a sort procedure. Sort procedure performance is information dependent. A dense and varied amount of information takes longer to sort. One example of dense musical information is a large orchestra playing a crescendo.

Driver amplifier delay and phase correction is an example of timing precision. How precisely does the driver move at a given moment in time, based on the amount of musical information. Three drivers (ELAC Navis) might be more difficult to synchronize than two in the KEF LS-50W.

 
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VonGoethe

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just to think about:
i am assuming that the guys from kef with all their experience, their measuring devices and their studios can manage a better integration of amp, dac, Dsp and streamer than i can do only with my ears and limited tools.
not to mention that cables, contact resistances etc no longer play a role in an all-in-one solution.
 
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mel

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just to think about:
i am assuming that the guys from kef with all their experience, their measuring devices and their studios can manage a better integration of amp, dac, Dsp and streamer than i can do only with my ears and limited tools.
not to mention that cables, contact resistances etc no longer play a role in an all-in-one solution.
You have a very good point. I finally discovered my powered speaker issue is a lack of Tidal "Master" content. If you have say, 100 to 200 Master albums in your library, a streaming active speaker is a great option.

My mistake was adding all of these great Tidal "HiFi" albums. I loved the content, but they do not have enough information (bit depth and sampling rate) for my AudioEngine A3 (powered speaker) to play certain types of instruments at high tempos without degrading sound quality. The speaker performs poorly (distorts) due to lack of information, rather than too much information. Or some inherent flaw in powered speaker architecture.

Certain instruments, like cymbals, record poorly because they angle away from the recording microphone and move around. It's like the cymbal movement creates a natural type of harmonic distortion. It's like cymbals need automatic tracking microphones. Cymbals are the type of instrument when distortion becomes first apparent. They need a high information flow to generate a stable audio signal. Higher than the Tidal "HiFi" provides.

The cymbal example gets to one of my basic questions about DSP processing. What processing power and throughput is required to sustain certain sound quality levels? How long will the architecture last before becoming obsolete? I simply do not know enough about digital crossovers or amplifiers to guess. Understanding the basic tradeoffs between powered and active speakers requires this level of understanding. My intuition tells me that the KEF LS-50W is a better INVESTMENT than the ELAC Navis. I look at audio equipment as an investment, rather than a regular upgrade.

I deleted half of my Tidal collection to remove "HiFi" quality recordings. I need a minimum "Master" collection size before buying a streaming speaker.

My speakers sound great for intense drumming when the music was recorded at Tidal "Master" level.
 
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VintageFlanker

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I am lost …
Why so? it's pretty simple:
rhythm
melody
harmony
In exact percentage, please?!:p
I deleted half of my Tidal collection to remove "HiFi" quality recordings. I need a minimum "Master" collection size before buying a streaming speaker.

My speakers sound great for intense drumming when the music was recorded at Tidal "Master" level.
No you don't. You just imagine you "need" to.

BTW, you should learn a bit more about what Tidal Master is all about: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...i-published-music-on-tidal-to-test-mqa.22549/
 

FrantzM

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@mel

The "processing power" required to reproduce a cymbal crash is ... well .. nothing.. It is routine, has been done and is being done by chip costing a few cents...Video works in the MHz and chips digitize it and reproduce it day in and out .. no sweat, no issues ...
Additionally , most of us, including those who think they have the very best hearing, fail to distinguish the better lossy codecs from original décompresseur, past a certain level. Once you are at 320 kb/s, only trained people have a chance. And that, by focusing on things they know and have been trained to discern. You could be one of those, in which case you can tell us. But I didn't see that mentioned. What I saw was a very subjective way to evaluate music reproduction, based on arbitrary and subjective metrics.

Here at ASR , we tend to require solid proofs. You didn't provide any. Or, perhaps, any that I noticed.

Stay. Learn. Read, research, discuss. You will learn a lot and will with patience and dedication build a solid music and/or movies reproduction system that up to now , would have cost you several times as much.

Peace.
 
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mel

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@mel

The "processing power" required to reproduce a cymbal crash is ... well .. nothing.. It is routine, has been done and is being done by chip costing a few cents...Video works in the MHz and chips digitize it and reproduce it day in and out .. no sweat, no issues ...
Additionally , most of us, including those who think they have the very best hearing, fail to distinguish the better lossy codecs from original décompresseur, past a certain level. Once you are at 320 kb/s, only trained people have a chance. And that, by focusing on things they know and have been trained to discern. You could be one of those, in which case you can tell us. But I didn't see that mentioned. What I saw was a very subjective way to evaluate music reproduction, based on arbitrary and subjective metrics.

Here at ASR , we tend to require solid proofs. You didn't provide any. Or, perhaps, any that I noticed.

Stay. Learn. Read, research, discuss. You will learn a lot and will with patience and dedication build a solid music and/or movies reproduction system that up to now , would have cost you several times as much.

Peace.
My point is recording cymbals has been extremely difficult for the recording industry because the cymbals oscillate. The microphone is in a stationary position. Do you see the physics that leads to natural distortion? On Tidal, only the "Master" recordings have the capacity to provide adequate cymbal information for intense drumming. Compression drops too much critical information.

When the cymbals are struck with great force for a sustained time period, the oscillation is harmonic. Elvin Jones "Master" recording is how I discerned a fully captured cymbal recording, from Caravan "HiFi" recordings that dropped audible portions of cymbal information. I compared over a dozen Caravan recordings, several times each. It was very hard to catch. I would say it is an "edge condition", marginal or borderline. Very subtle. many people would find it imperceptible.

Garbage in, garbage out.
 
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mel

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Replace Tidal with Qobuz.
You are right, I need to switch from Tidal.

Right now, my main focus is on exploring and learning jazz. I started taking jazz seriously during the covid shutdown. My dad was a big jazz fan. I am familiar with a few famous jazz artists, from my dad's influence. I can recognize a few jazz artists by sound. I am trying to build a working knowledge of jazz. I am moving very slowly, because I am trying to associate a jazz artist with his sound. I find this very difficult because most jazz lacks lyrics. I like pure acoustic recording.

I am building a small, core jazz library. I am not trying to build an immense jazz library. Eventually, I will have hundreds or thousands of albums in a collection that I effectively retrieve from.

Do you have a way to organize jazz information so you can retrieve exactly what you want?
 
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