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how to eq harsh upper mid - high frequencies?

oneofakind

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Dec 22, 2023
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Hey there,

I have a sub-optimal living room and have bought some JBL L100 Classic MKII. I have already tested 3 speakers in this room and have the same problem with all of them. The upper mid to high frequencies sound harsh, tested with several AMPs. I think it's the room, I measured it and got some problems in the higher frequencies (already discussed here: ASR Forum).

Now I had a concrete wall right next to me and I put some wooden acoustic panels on the wall with damping behind them. It got a bit better, but not nearly enough.

So I've tried multiple speakers, multiple AMPs, multiple speaker positions (it's a living room and I can't position them where I want) and some room treatment, but I can't solve the problem. So now I have to do what I didn't want to do. Use an EQ.
I want to use pure direct because I don't like the result when I turn on the EQ in the higher frequencies, but I don't know what else to do.

So I've bought a Denon X3800H which is dirac live ready. What would be the best way to EQ now? Should I buy dirac live? Should I try the new Audyssey One approach (I've read it's only up to 250hz?)? Or do you have another, better idea?

Here are some pictures of my room:
20250108_091248.jpg


PXL_20240412_201244836.jpg
 
Switching amps won't solve a problem like this, unless the original amp was broken or an old/cheap load dependent class D. EQ can solve this, but the statement
I don't like the result when I turn on the EQ in the higher frequencies,
is kinda weird, because there isn't one EQ in higher frequencies. There's a near infinite number of setting combinations so you couldn't possibly judge them all by testing a handful or even just a single one.

That being said, your room with a wood ceiling, laminate flooring and no big windows looks pretty good to me. I would recommend you start with two simple things: Rotate the speakers outwards in 5° steps and see if that reduces the hot treble. If this doesn't help, add a medium sized carpet in front of the speakers and below the table. You could just borrow one from another room or use a big blanket for testing.

If both of those options fail, you can think about EQ. Due to the amount of options an EQ gives you, it is very powerful but can also be time consuming and tedious to tune. That's why I would initially recommend the two "easier" steps above.
 
Ok, my guess:
The left hand wall will reflect a lot of energy arriving very soon after the direct on axis sound from your speakers and introduce a lot of comb filtering. EQ will not solve this, if you eq for total comfortable mid-treble energi, the direct sound will be compromised at these frequencies. I think you'll need broadband acoustic treatment for early reflections...

My general "philosophy": up to 250-500hz can and should be EQ'd to work with the room. Above that, you EQ based on anechoic or gated measurements. Everything else require acoustic treatment.
 
What do you mean when you say you don't like the result when using EQ? And what EQ? -What is the EQ settings you use?
 
is kinda weird, because there isn't one EQ in higher frequencies. There's a near infinite number of setting combinations so you couldn't possibly judge them all by testing a handful or even just a single one.
What i meant was, when i use my simple EQ from my marantz AVR and i -db some frequencies (1k, 2k, 5k etc.) the problem is gone but the sound becomes muffled.

@Old_School_Brad

Rotate the speakers outwards in 5° steps and see if that reduces the hot treble. If this doesn't help, add a medium sized carpet in front of the speakers and below the table. You could just borrow one from another room or use a big blanket for testing.
i did all positions (which are possible in that limited space) and already have a thick carpet. Yesterday i've put mattresses behind and on the side from the speakers, so alot of absorption was done and still the sound was too harsh. That's when i decided i need to use a EQ. That's why i'm asking how to EQ in the best way? Dirac? Audyssey? Manual?

. I think you'll need broadband acoustic treatment for early reflections...
Not possible in my living room unfortunately.
 
What i meant was, when i use my simple EQ from my marantz AVR and i -db some frequencies (1k, 2k, 5k etc.) the problem is gone but the sound becomes muffled.

Have you given it a few days? You might simply be accustomed to how it sounded without EQ, so in direct comparison, it feels muffled because those frequencies have been attenuated. It’s possible that what you’re describing as muffled is actually a more neutral sound.

I noticed in the other thread that you’ve done some measurements. It would be interesting to see how they look with the EQ applied.
 
Have you given it a few days? You might simply be accustomed to how it sounded without EQ, so in direct comparison, it feels muffled because those frequencies have been attenuated. It’s possible that what you’re describing as muffled is actually a more neutral sound.
i will do that now! And hopefully adjust my ears to that. I just wanna know the best way to do the EQ :)
 
i will do that now! And hopefully adjust my ears to that. I just wanna know the best way to do the EQ :)
That’s something you can determine by measuring before and after, which you seem to be doing already. I’d recommend continuing with that approach, and if you still can’t get it to sound right to your ears, consider looking into Dirac Live. However, keep in mind that using Dirac requires some knowledge of EQ and measurements -it’s not, in my opinion, a simple “good sound button.” Well, it might be for some.
Using EQ or DSP, adjusting and comparing measurements is an excellent way to begin to understand what works and what doesn’t.
And listening, of course. :)

I kept it simple. The rabbit hole goes very deep.. ;)
 
You could try with a MiniDSP flex, that has more dsp capacities than an AVR for stereo use. It can have a DIRAC licence to.

But i think the main problem is a lot of resonances in the 4-8Khz region, that makes the speaker harsh. And no eq can solve that. It's very obvious when you hear this speaker (at least the MKII), while the original did not have that. I never have seen a test to confirm, but on this (i heared the speakers a few times in different setups) it's so obvious that you don't need a test to hear it. A test would be nice altough, even if it's only to confirm (or show me wrong).
 
No, the JBL L100 Century from 1973 that i know from my youth. A good friend (his father) had those and i spend hours in front of it as kid. That and the Warfdale Linton XP3 of my father are my youth references for good speakers.
 
i got some pretty good results with just -2db 1k Hz -2db 2k Hz -4db 3k Hz -2db 4k Hz .. I just want now a more fine tuning way of doing it

Not quite understanding ... you setup 4 EQs (one each for 1kHz, 2kHz, 3kHz, 4kHz)? If yes, that's not good because they are all so close together and the cuts will add up. There is even a -4dB cut so high up in the presence region. No wonder you mentioned the sound becomes muffled.

Try this "BBC dip proxy" EQ:
  • 2500Hz;
  • Q=2.0 (lower it if you want to widen the cut);
  • -1.5dB (or more if needed)
 
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you setup 4 EQs (one each for 1kHz, 2kHz, 3kHz, 4kHz)?
That was just a quick test with the basic EQ my marantz AVR has integrated. Now i want a more in depth and detailed solution. I think i'll go with the miniDSP Flex.
So AVR - > Flex -> power amp -> JBL
 
I recommend this video from Erin:


He did point out potential setup problems with in room reflections due to the asymmetric design, also some solutions to mitigate them. On the plus side, it's well behaved directivity wise so if EQ is a must, it should be no problem. I'd still keep in mind the anechoic data and potentially use that to get the overall response on the more neutral side.

Looking at the photo of your setup, I suspect that harshness you hear would be due to the early reflections considering asymmetric design, in combination with asymmetric positioning with regards to sidewalls. The design itself may lead to potential problems with vertical reflections as well, so some treatment on the ceiling/floor may help. Toe in may also be critical in getting the summation of the two loudspeakers dialed in at your MLP.
 
He did point out potential setup problems with in room reflections due to the asymmetric design, also some solutions to mitigate them. On the plus side, it's well behaved directivity wise so if EQ is a must, it should be no problem. I'd still keep in mind the anechoic data and potentially use that to get the overall response on the more neutral side.
thanks for this vid! I'm more confident now with these speakers :) I never tried going mid all up on the knobs, gonna try that tonight!

The design itself may lead to potential problems with vertical reflections as well
I've got a wooden ceiling with 'open' beams that break the otherwise flat ceiling. Is this good or bad acoustically? Should I maybe try playing absorbers between the beams?
 
thanks for this vid! I'm more confident now with these speakers :) I never tried going mid all up on the knobs, gonna try that tonight!


I've got a wooden ceiling with 'open' beams that break the otherwise flat ceiling. Is this good or bad acoustically? Should I maybe try playing absorbers between the beams?
Relax. Play around with EQ, measure, repeat.. ;)
 
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