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How NOT to set up speakers and room treatment ( Goldensound)

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Axo1989

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In any case, I think that type of interior is suitable for cold winter days or rainy autumn days.On hot summer days, you might want a slightly more "airy" interior.
In practice, for most people I guess, it will be some kind of compromise that suits all seasons of the year.

Okay, ASR is not a site about interior design, but interior design still has a bearing on the sound, so it's not completely off to talk about it.:)

Well, winter here now so cosy is looking good. I just noticed Sweden for you so Scandi modern is maybe run-of-the-mill? Nice to have a winter room and a summer room. And more than one listening area (living, dedicated, etc).
 

Berlin

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GoldenSound is referring to a "38% rule" for determining the optimal listening position in a room. Is there a sound reference for this available? Thanks in advance...
 

DanielT

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Good absorption from only 1 kHz and up? That's exactly a good example for a possible detrimental treatment in my opinion. Alters the spectral content and thus the tonality greatly. Makes the sound typically dead. I have been involved in several rooms where such treatment were used and we had to fix it with more broadband treatment. Night and day difference in both the measuring and audible area, but obviously I'm biased ;)
Absorbents of 0.5-1 m2 that are 4 cm thick at the side walls of the speakers, would that: "Makes the sound typically dead"?

In any case, anyone can test it. Just put something up. Take what's at home.:)
 

Eetu

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GoldenSound is referring to a "38% rule" for determining the optimal listening position in a room. Is there a sound reference for this available? Thanks in advance...
Assuming a rectangular room the primary axial room modes create bass build-up in the center of the room but also nulls at 1/4 (and 3/4..) of the room. In theory the 38% rule avoids both. Now most rooms have windows, doors and walls of different construction so measure and listen before trusting it blindly. But generally speaking it does offer a good starting point.
 

Geert

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GoldenSound is referring to a "38% rule" for determining the optimal listening position in a room. Is there a sound reference for this available? Thanks in advance...

Basic math concerning the lowest longitudinal axial room modes. The idea is to stay clear of the nulls.
download.png
 
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Bjorn

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Absorbents of 0.5-1 m2 that are 4 cm thick at the side walls of the speakers, would that: "Makes the sound typically dead"?

In any case, anyone can test it. Just put something up. Take what's at home.:)
It's very far from ideal because it's so bandlimited and basically an high frequency absorber. It's only going to absorb only really well down to about 950 Hz, corresponding with the comment about good absorption above 1 kHz. But may certainly be better than nothing in some cases, especially in room with little treatment.

It's really best to compare it to more broadband treatment. So one actually has a proper reference.
 

FrankW

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An irony is that if we say we prefer side wall reflections, we're basically also saying we prefer a more uneven frequency response.
Nonsense. There is overwhelming evidence for preference by 2 ears of smoother on and off axis. The things you studio-treatments folks imagine make a single pressure mic happy is perceptual science free....with exception of sight being a perception.
It could be that in some of those preference studies, the treatment used simply wasn't very effective or broadband enough.
More wishful thinking fallacy. You either have scientific evidence to counter all the previous works, or like all audio treatment sellers, you don't.
ALL the "treatment" advocates in this thread are expressing their audio-visual preferences for seeing treatments (which is entirely appropriate for their conditions), NOT anything ascertained from blind listening/perceptual testing.
 

d3l

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This thread is still too much about his age and attitude vs what he actually did with the room.

He found the low end sweet spot for his listening position, treated corners and first reflection points with thick broadband absorption and backed it all up with measurements. To me there was very little factual errors to be found. I don't care if he's 19 or 89 if the content is there.

Floyd Toole says himself that reflections arriving from front and back add little to nothing to spaciousness or apparent source width. His speakers have vertical lobing/directivity error so it's smart to treat the ceiling. He achieved very smooth decay times from 300Hz to 20kHz. 150-300Hz could've been better. But again, the room probably sounds better than mine, Toole's and the majority of folks' rooms here on ASR.
Spot on.
 

Axo1989

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Here is a comment regarding the video below:

"It has been known, and well described scientifically, for at least 40 years that high levels of early lateral reflections confuse hearing and should be kept low. However, the conditions in two-channel listening rooms are completely different from concert halls, which is why one should be very careful with comparisons here.

In practice, this means that you should mount absorbers at the first reflection area on the side walls or use textile panels or thick curtains/drapes if you want to optimize your listening room. An area of approx. 0.5-1 m2 is sufficient and in addition it is most important to have good absorption from approx. 1 kHz and up, which is why it is reasonable to have an absorbent thickness of approx. 4 cm. More low-frequency reflections are conveniently handled via equalization."



Edit:
And anyone can try putting up that, i.e. "textile panels or thick curtains/drapes".
If you like it, keep them/it, otherwise you, of course, just take them down.
Just to test on.:)

The side reflection thing has certainly featured in this discussion.

More by accident than design (acoustically speaking) I inherited pretty complete floor and ceiling treatment (slatted absorber ceiling and acoustically porous tatami floor) but untreated sidewalls that can nonetheless slide away. Of course, an open wall has near perfect absorption of 1 Sabine at all frequencies. So that delivers mixing room dryness (in terms of overall RT60 numbers) but optional side reflection can happen in that context.

Thinking of preceding discussion of Toole, we often see the figure (7.14) showing some subjective speaker ranking in mono vs stereo, but less often the following figure (7.16) with the stereo listening by musical genre:

Screenshot 2023-05-30 at 8.22.58 pm.png


The discussion that follows is interesting:

Figure 7.16 shows the spatial quality ratings for each of the music selections. They are all different. The choral selection used multiple microphones and the chamber piece employed a Blumlein coincident pair. The listening room reflections are likely to be heavily diluted or masked by the spatial information incorporated into the stereo clas- sical recordings. Nevertheless, there are hints of preferential biases in the distributions, but they are different for the two recordings. The jazz selection revealed lower ratings for the Rega. No explanation for this was found, but there is clearly an interaction with aspects of this specific recording.
In distinct contrast, the pop music selection put the Quad in a position of disfavor. In fact, the subjective ratings in this stereo test are remarkably similar to those seen in monophonic listening (Figure 7.14). Why? Of all the recordings, the pop recording was the only one to have significant amounts of hard-panned, that is, monophonic, sound emerging from the left and right loudspeakers and a hard-panned “double-mono” phantom center image. It is conceivable that listeners reacted to the relative lack of reflected-sound (spatial) accompaniment for these monophonic components of the stereo soundstage. In a stereo mix incorporating substantial reflected sound, as in these classical recordings, listeners would hear more low-correlation sounds (low ICCC) placing the musical instruments in a spatial context. However, close-miked sounds hard panned to left and right, as in many pop/rock and jazz recordings, would be heard from “naked” loudspeakers, with only the listening room to provide a spatial context.

I listen to modern studio-assembled and synthetic music so enjoy presentation of a detailed stereo image or soundstage (but care somewhat less about reproduction of a "live event" in a real acoustic space). For people who find the terminology confusing, stereo image is illustrated nicely in a B&O white paper on their variable dispersion, steerable Beolab 90.

The popular music used by Toole in 1985 as described was pretty primitive stuff. More recently we have complex mixes of carefully placed sonics with virtual size, focus, position etc (achieved via manipulation of azimuth, amplitude, timing/phase, frequency, reverb/echo and so on) and far less L/C/R hard panning.

Screenshot 2023-05-30 at 8.39.09 pm.png


We can probably make an analogy between the narrow/wide dispersion options of the B&O speaker and the effect of less/more side reflection in the room.

Screenshot 2023-05-30 at 8.38.30 pm.png


And go further with an analogy between a very live room and the omni dispersion mode. The analogy isn't perfect (I think the schematics understate the envelopment factor and may exaggerate the loss of depth, nor do we have more modern effects placing sounds beyond the speakers laterally) but I think it's sufficiently illustrative to convey the idea.

Screenshot 2023-05-30 at 8.47.24 pm.png


My guess is that as a headphone guy, Cameron is consciously or otherwise aiming for and happy with a certain sonic character that minimised room reflections to a high degree. He likely goes too far for many people, and his room suits some types of music more and others less.

My listening preferences (and others here who share taste for electronic) leans dry, narrow-ish dispersion, low reflection (but not anechoic) and so on. And because many of those instruments and sounds are highly modified and/or have no analog reference, I'm less worried by some of the peculiar timbral deficiencies of stereo that may benefit from masking reflections, in favour of the stereophonic holographics revealed by better controlled reflections etc. A classical listener will likely lean the other way.

I think the point is that now we have a better understanding of small room acoustics, better reproduction gear, better digital tools and so on so we can select, set up and explore systems+rooms that work for our various requirements.
 
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Keith_W

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Instead of bitching perhaps highlight what’s wrong and show us your perfect rooms?

image.png.68fe2a6b225828834efd39bb5a78e672.png


My room (furniture, rugs, and blinds only, no acoustic treatment). A bit dry in the bass but that's because I have huge windows around the room and one end is open to the dining room, so it leaks bass. I only corrected below Schroder transition (400Hz in my room). Bass is +/- 5dB up to 100Hz.
 

Bjorn

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The effect on the frequency response from side wall reflections will depend on several aspects, and also why it's so difficult to come up with absolutes.

But here we can see the result with no side wall treatment vs side wall treatment with one channel in one particular room.
Red=no side wall treatment. Blue: with side wall treatment.
left speaker without and with sidewall treatment overlay.jpg
 

FrankW

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My guess is that as a headphone guy,..
Ahh, that explains this
417FSop3fig4.jpg

So, select a very bling looking speaker with proper audiophile audio forum street cred, but terrible polar response, then plaster the room with audio-visual "treatments" to "treat"/correct to audio-visual taste.
Then make video for world to see ones handiwork. Nice. :)
 

DJBonoBobo

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Speaking of mixing rooms, formal study was done to see if there is preference for side wall absorption, diffusion or reflection when creating a mix in a controlled environment. Result was that it did not matter but when the testers were asked to express an opinion, most preferred a reflective side (painted drywall). From peer reviewed journal of AES paper, The Practical Effects of Lateral Energy in Critical Listening Environments

"2.1.1 Main Effects
The only statistically significant effect was Music F (2, 123) = 5.71, p = 0.0034. However, the main factor for this experiment, Treatment, was not found to be statistically significant F (2, 7.6) = 0.35, p = 0.7."

"2.3 Subjects’ Preference
After the experiment each subject was asked which acoustic treatment created the best listening condition for mixing. Eight (8) subjects decided it is Diffusion, seven (7) decided Absorption, and eleven (11) decided Reflection. We decided to test subjects’ level preference and variance performance based on that information (Fig. 11)."


View attachment 288953

So once again, we need to operate from the position that sidewalls are beneficial unless proven otherwise (in the case of listener). Instructing people to blindly absorb them is just wrong. What seems intuitive is just wrong here. Two ears and brain don't work in the way people imagine....
But doesn't this mean 15 people (8+7) preferred some kind of treatment and 11 no treatment?
 

thewas

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417FSop3fig4.jpg

So, select a very bling looking speaker with proper audiophile audio forum street cred, but terrible polar response
While I agree with not few of the things you write, I wouldn't call above polar terrible and I don't think Toole would either, there are much worse designs to be called terrible. :D
 

FrankW

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But here we can see the result with no side wall treatment vs side wall treatment with one channel in one particular room. Red=no side wall treatment. Blue: with side wall treatment.
View attachment 289209
Yep, the one pressure mic at one spatial position visual effect.
Now here, we have a bunch of studio guys who swear by studio treatments, using instead of 1 pressure mic, their 2 ears, no peeking.
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=16640
To what extent does the mixing engineer’s listening environment influence the final experience of the home listener, especially regarding the role of reflections? A pilot study explores the effect of specular and diffuse lateral reflection on the perception of trained listeners. Reflections may strongly influence balance, equalization, dynamics, and reverberation. In contrast to earlier studies that used normal listeners, this study uses trained audio engineers to perform selected tasks in a variety of acoustic settings. A correlation was observed between the presence of strong lateral energy and an initial reduction of speed for performing a task. However, adaptation soon occurs, thereby restoring the subjects to normal accuracy and response time.
 
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youngho

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The popular music used by Toole in 1985 as described was pretty primitive stuff. More recently we have complex mixes of carefully placed sonics with virtual size, focus, position etc (achieved via manipulation of azimuth, amplitude, timing/phase, frequency, reverb/echo and so on) and far less L/C/R hard panning.
Oddly enough, Famous Blue Raincoat was recorded in 1986.
My listening preferences (and others here who share taste for electronic) leans dry, narrow-ish dispersion, low reflection (but not anechoic) and so on. And because many of those instruments and sounds are highly modified and/or have no analog reference, I'm less worried by some of the peculiar timbral deficiencies of stereo that may benefit from masking reflections, in favour of the stereophonic holographics revealed by better controlled reflections etc. A classical listener will likely lean the other way.
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
“There is no single “right” way to do things. About 37 years ago, when I was setting up the NRC listening room, I ran a drapery track down the front portion of the side walls and across the wall of the room behind the loudspeakers, hanging 4-foot sections of densely-folded heavy drapes. The track was about 6 inches from the wall for good broadband absorption. These could be moved around, and in the case of the sidewall reflections, we quickly found that things sounded better if they were pushed back for more "spacious" classical music, and pulled out for "in your face" rock/pop stuff. I knew a couple of stereo enthusiasts who copied the idea at home. I concluded that, in terms of loudspeaker/room combinations, one size does not fit all.”

https://gearspace.com/board/showpost.php?p=15187387&postcount=61
“Music with lots of decorrelated sounds, classical for example, is sometimes enhanced by reflections, although coincident-mic recordings may benefit from a lack of reflections - letting the direct sounds be more dominant (the Blumlein stereo effects work best in an almost anechoic situation).
Pan-potted recordings (the majority of pop) end up delivering essentially monophonic sounds from left and right loudspeakers, and these may well benefit from a bit of spatial enhancement. Otherwise we are left with what really annoys me about stereo: a relatively spatial set of phantom images created by both loudspeakers, and two "anchor" images created by the left and right loudspeakers playing solo. “
I think the point is that now we have a better understanding of small room acoustics, better reproduction gear, better digital tools and so on so we can select, set up and explore systems+rooms that work for our various requirements.
Classical concertgoers can be divided into two broad categories, those who prefer clarity/proximity vs reverberance/width. It seems likely to me that home listeners may be similarly characterized, though I believe that there may be a third category for whom timbre and/or phase are particularly important (I wonder if this accounts for the relative stair step directivity index curves of many Harman designs, also those users who separately prefer wide-baffle or single drive/wide ranger designs). I've been trying to refine the information in this post further: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-on-readings-of-lokki-bech-toole-et-al.27540/
 

FrankW

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While I agree with not few of the things you write, I wouldn't call above polar terrible and I don't think Toole would either, there are much worse designs to be called terrible. :D
That's a $20k speaker in 2017 $. That's terrible in both that context and the fact one can get much smoother for 1/10th the price.
The baffle shape of the focal is pure marketing engineering, not acoustics. I'll let the good Dr speak for himself.
 

thewas

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That's a $20k speaker in 2017 $. That's terrible in both that context and the fact one can get much smoother for 1/10th the price.
The baffle shape of the focal is pure marketing engineering, not acoustics. I'll let the good Dr speak for himself.
I agree for the price that its not great but as said I personally wouldn't call it absolutely terrible, I also doubt that @Floyd Toole ex bipoles had a really smoother polar than that. Maybe he will chime in, who knows? ;)
 
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