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How NOT to set up speakers and room treatment ( Goldensound)

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amirm

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A performance hall has lots of long reverberation, but no short reflections from sidewalls. A reflective sidewall in a small listening room therefore introduces the wrong kind of reflection, distorting the sound.
Why isn't it the other way around? Can't someone say they want to hear the sound of the violin in that performance hall instead of all the "wrong" reflections "distorting" said sound? After all, if you are after purity, why would reflections in such a hall be good? You see the problem with pleading instead of bringing evidence of something?
 

amirm

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Fair points, no disagreement from me really. But I think the scope of discussion on this really boils down to the age-old wide vs. narrow vs. omni dispersion debate. How much reflected sound is desirable in the home? My point is just that it may vary depending on the music to a pretty significant extent. Even Toole and Geddes don't agree on this, and I don't think there's a final answer in store, because there's no objectively correct answer or even an industry standard in place.
If you believe that, then you need to have a negative reaction to people prescribing absorbing every reflection. Yet if I poll 100 people who have gotten their knowledge from reading forum posts and videos like that youtuber, vast majority will say you have to absorb.

Indeed, if you settle on what you stated above, we are in a heck of a lot better position than what the youtuber claimed with measuring reflections using ETC and stomping them out. And not leaving an inch of space on the walls uncovered.
 

caught gesture

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amirm

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Let’s not use hyperbole.
What do you mean? Here is his room again:

1686164415124.png


Fully carpeted. Then panels everywhere. The ratio of uncovered to covered is very small. It is one of the most stuffed rooms I have seen, short of people covering the walls with thin fabric....
 

Duke

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What do you mean? Here is his room again:

View attachment 290810

Fully carpeted. Then panels everywhere. The ratio of uncovered to covered is very small. It is one of the most stuffed rooms I have seen, short of people covering the walls with thin fabric....

NOT that I'm advocating for "two wrongs make a right", BUT these speakers are arguably candidates for having their off-axis high frequency energy aggressively absorbed. They have an imo severe off-axis energy flare starting at about 2.5 kHz and spanning a little over two octaves, as seen in SoundStage's off-axis curves:


That 6.5" midrange driver has a very stiff cone and stiff cones tend to beam more severely at their top end than cones which have controlled break-up. This exaggerates the radiation pattern discrepancy between the midrange and tweeter, as you can see in the off-axis measurements linked above. Imo this speaker would be a good candidate for a waveguide-loaded tweeter - THAT way, you wouldn't "need" all that absorption to "fix" the speaker's in-room response.

On the other hand the on-axis response looks pretty good (to my ears 8 kHz is a bad place to have a bit of emphasis, but maybe that's just me):


With the roller-coaster off-axis response of the Focal (first link above) still in your short-term memory, NOW take a look at John Atkinson's normalized off-axis curves of the Magico M2:


Typing as a speaker designer who appreciates well-behaved off-axis response, WOW!! My guess is that Magico's 6" midrange cone has exceptionally well-controlled breakup resulting in off-axis response which blends very smoothly with the (slightly waveguided) tweeter's off-axis response in the crossover region. Can you find the crossover between midrange and tweeter by looking at the off-axis curves? Neither can I.

Kudos to Alon Wolf!!

Unfortunately Magicos are all too often put into "thoroughly treated" dedicated listening rooms wherein the excessive absorption sucks the life out of them. In my opinion.

Edit: If Magico were to hire me as a consultant (HAHAHAHAHA!), I'd want to at least try a rear-firing supertweeter on the M2, "voiced" to zig where the front-firing tweeter's response "zags", north of 10 kHz:


I realize this goes contrary to the idea of MINIMIZING the discrepancy between the direct and reflected sound, but it is consistent with the idea that perceived timbre is a weighted average of the direct and reflected sound... so it MIGHT be a net improvement, and imo the best way to find out would be to actually TRY it. Obviously the rear-firing supertweeter's effective contribution would be at the mercy of the room's acoustics, so maybe even put an L-pad on it.
 
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Eckerslad

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Why isn't it the other way around? Can't someone say they want to hear the sound of the violin in that performance hall instead of all the "wrong" reflections "distorting" said sound? After all, if you are after purity, why would reflections in such a hall be good? You see the problem with pleading instead of bringing evidence of something?
I’d like to hear that violin as it sounded in that large performance space, with its late reflections captured in the recording. My sidewalls would then alter that sound by adding early reflections, I’d expect. Absorption at early reflection points would help mitigate this. I personally have no evidence of this, but it is common practice.
 

kemmler3D

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If you believe that, then you need to have a negative reaction to people prescribing absorbing every reflection. Yet if I poll 100 people who have gotten their knowledge from reading forum posts and videos like that youtuber, vast majority will say you have to absorb.

Indeed, if you settle on what you stated above, we are in a heck of a lot better position than what the youtuber claimed with measuring reflections using ETC and stomping them out. And not leaving an inch of space on the walls uncovered.
No disagreement here, and usually even the most braindead people applying acoustic treatment (well maybe down to the 90th percentile) realize there is such a thing as "too dead" even if they do not grasp the details on which reflections are more or less desirable.
 

Kvalsvoll

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What do you mean? Here is his room again:

View attachment 290810

Fully carpeted. Then panels everywhere. The ratio of uncovered to covered is very small. It is one of the most stuffed rooms I have seen, short of people covering the walls with thin fabric....
You can not tell how this room performs acoustically from a picture. The panels in use are not necessarily pure absorbers. And only parts of the surfaces shown in the picture are covered with panels. Rooms that are built intended for sound reproduction often has acoustic treatment built into the walls, so it actually covers all surface area.

I used 10 mins to skip through the video. The panels are supplied by a professional company with long experience in making acoustic products and treating rooms. Perhaps they actually know something about acoustics. The panels are partially reflective, they are not simple absorbers. It looks like this supplier has provided some good advice for how to treat this room, and it looks like the owner actually listened to them. Because the room in itself makes sense, and perhaps even sounds quite good. What is very obvious, though, is that the treated room is a huge improvement from what they started with. Would I fix this room like this? No, but that is also irrelevant here.
 

goat76

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Why isn't it the other way around? Can't someone say they want to hear the sound of the violin in that performance hall instead of all the "wrong" reflections "distorting" said sound? After all, if you are after purity, why would reflections in such a hall be good? You see the problem with pleading instead of bringing evidence of something?

The violin is an acoustic instrument and the acoustic reflections are an important part of how that instrument sounds. If the recording engineer managed to capture the sound of that instrument, including the reflection of the great-sounding concert hall built for the purpose of highlighting acoustic instrument performances in the best way possible, there shouldn't be a need for you to add much of your listening environment's reflections to that equation.

Recording the sound of the violin including the venue is one thing and reproducing that recorded information is another thing. That's why recording studios have live recording rooms that are not treated with a lot of absorption material, but the control room is acoustically treated for the engineer to hear the acoustics of the live recording room through his monitors without too much interference from the control room acoustics.

And just because someone tries to reduce the energy from the first reflection points doesn't mean he will end up with a completely dead and overdamped listening room, there will still be a lot of reflections reaching the listener's position from all the other non-treated surfaces even if they are not called "first" reflections anymore.
 

Thomas_A

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I’d like to hear that violin as it sounded in that large performance space, with its late reflections captured in the recording. My sidewalls would then alter that sound by adding early reflections, I’d expect. Absorption at early reflection points would help mitigate this. I personally have no evidence of this, but it is common practice.
You will not be able to do that, not with stereo. You may be able to "transform" your room to a lounge that is fused to the room/hall with the event. To transform to the event "in place" you need a minimum a center speaker and side-wall speakers that can recreate the reflections from the original event. For immersive sound you would also need surround speakers.
 
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Axo1989

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You can not tell how this room performs acoustically from a picture. The panels in use are not necessarily pure absorbers. And only parts of the surfaces shown in the picture are covered with panels. Rooms that are built intended for sound reproduction often has acoustic treatment built into the walls, so it actually covers all surface area.

I used 10 mins to skip through the video. The panels are supplied by a professional company with long experience in making acoustic products and treating rooms. Perhaps they actually know something about acoustics. The panels are partially reflective, they are not simple absorbers. It looks like this supplier has provided some good advice for how to treat this room, and it looks like the owner actually listened to them. Because the room in itself makes sense, and perhaps even sounds quite good. What is very obvious, though, is that the treated room is a huge improvement from what they started with. Would I fix this room like this? No, but that is also irrelevant here.

Yes, he does mention that some of the panels have partially reflective surfaces iirc. I'd have to watch it again. Because he chose a fabric cover you can't see it of course. Personally I prefer the appearance of panels where the usually patterned reflective surface is visible (like the versions on the front wall in the video) but that's aesthetics, not performance.

Edit: not hard to find ~17:50 and showing some of the red fabric-covered absorbers "you can also get some products that do both [absorption and diffusion] I've got some GIK panels that are absorbers but have scatter plates under the fabric ..." No need to ignore that when describing the treatment used here.
 
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Eckerslad

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You will not be able to do that, not with stereo. You may be able to "transform" your room to a lounge that is fused to the room/hall with the event. To transform to the event "in place" you need a minimum a center speaker and side-wall speakers that can recreate the reflections from the original event. For immersive sound you would also need surround speakers.
I agree, a large performance space must be impossible to recreate perfectly with two speakers in a small room. A stereo recording in such a space will include reverb tails that give an impression of the space at least.
 

Axo1989

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Typing as a speaker designer who appreciates well-behaved off-axis response, WOW!! My guess is that Magico's 6" midrange cone has exceptionally well-controlled breakup resulting in off-axis response which blends very smoothly with the (slightly waveguided) tweeter's off-axis response in the crossover region. Can you find the crossover between midrange and tweeter by looking at the off-axis curves? Neither can I.

It took me a while to appreciate how good Magicos often are (maybe it was the name) but they do pull it off. Haven't seen or heard them in real life unfortunately.
 

amirm

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I’d like to hear that violin as it sounded in that large performance space, with its late reflections captured in the recording. My sidewalls would then alter that sound by adding early reflections, I’d expect. Absorption at early reflection points would help mitigate this. I personally have no evidence of this, but it is common practice.
I hear you. But one must realize that the common practice was developed in absence of any study whatsoever. It originated in studios decades back where speakers of the time had horrible off-axis response so perhaps there was some justification for it then. It has little relevance today since we know what a good speaker is (good on and off axis). It continues because it makes intuitive sense to people and is repeated over and over again online. But it simply is not backed by controlled studies.

Check out the results of this study by Barron: The Subjective Effects of First Reflections in Concert Halls—The Need for Lateral Reflections

He simulated the effects of a single reflection in an anechoic chamber using an extra speaker (common practice):
1686171343557.png


Under the section on spatial qualities, this is what he had to say:
"Echo disturbance is also a negative contribution, etc. It was found that, for the majority of reflection situations, the subjective effect of a side reflection was "spatial impression", it occurs for all delays > 10 msec. When, for example, one increased the Ievel of a 40 msec delay side reflection from threshold, the source appeared to broaden, the music beginning to gain body and fullness. One had the impression of being in a three-dimensional space. As the refection Ievel was increased, the amount of source broadening also increased, until for high echo Ievels there was an image shift. This broadening effect or spatial impression was easy to appreciate; subjects in fact found it relatively easy to equate two spatial impressions."

The bolded part is what you consider good about performance halls, correct?

Honestly, I appreciate that these learned concepts are hard to let go. But let go we must. As a minimum, one needs to adopt a neutral position.
 

amirm

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The panels are supplied by a professional company with long experience in making acoustic products and treating rooms. Perhaps they actually know something about acoustics.
I can tell you with confidence that the answer to that is a solid NO. GIK acoustics claim to fame was very low cost acoustic panels. They were quite active in forums and so built a name for themselves among hobbyists. Building acoustic products especially when you are just copying what is online and from competitors, requires woodworking and furniture making skills. It has no requirements at all for knowing acoustics much less psychoacoustics. Here is what they sell as "patented" bass traps:

1686172113058.png


The response drops like a rock below 80 Hz. By the time you absorb all the bass modes, you will have covered all your walls and have a fully dead room. They would be happy of course to have made the money to sell you those bits.
 

Eckerslad

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I hear you. But one must realize that the common practice was developed in absence of any study whatsoever. It originated in studios decades back where speakers of the time had horrible off-axis response so perhaps there was some justification for it then. It has little relevance today since we know what a good speaker is (good on and off axis). It continues because it makes intuitive sense to people and is repeated over and over again online. But it simply is not backed by controlled studies.

Check out the results of this study by Barron: The Subjective Effects of First Reflections in Concert Halls—The Need for Lateral Reflections

He simulated the effects of a single reflection in an anechoic chamber using an extra speaker (common practice):
View attachment 290819

Under the section on spatial qualities, this is what he had to say:
"Echo disturbance is also a negative contribution, etc. It was found that, for the majority of reflection situations, the subjective effect of a side reflection was "spatial impression", it occurs for all delays > 10 msec. When, for example, one increased the Ievel of a 40 msec delay side reflection from threshold, the source appeared to broaden, the music beginning to gain body and fullness. One had the impression of being in a three-dimensional space. As the refection Ievel was increased, the amount of source broadening also increased, until for high echo Ievels there was an image shift. This broadening effect or spatial impression was easy to appreciate; subjects in fact found it relatively easy to equate two spatial impressions."

The bolded part is what you consider good about performance halls, correct?

Honestly, I appreciate that these learned concepts are hard to let go. But let go we must. As a minimum, one needs to adopt a neutral position.
That’s quite cool. Unfortunately I can’t take advantage of this effect because my speakers are too close to the walls in my 14 foot wide English living room!

But changing to smaller scale recordings, say two or three guitars recorded in a small space, but listening in a wider room would the broadening effect not warp the soundstage?

Are side reflections not just euphonic distortions that suit music recorded in large halls?
 

Somafunk

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The response drops like a rock below 80 Hz. By the time you absorb all the bass modes, you will have covered all your walls and have a fully dead room.

Not necessarily, all my gik bass traps have range limiter membranes that rapidly tail off and my room is certainly not dead sounding (totally unscientific subjective listening opinion ;)). When I get my Umik mic back from a mate I’ll take some sweeps and open myself and room up for criticism :D

  • RANGE LIMITER – The second option has a built-in frequency range limiter. This option includes a membrane system which starts absorbing at a lower frequency but also has a cut off starting around 400Hz. Using the Range Limiter option ensures maximum low end absorption while retaining nearly 100% of the upper frequencies within your room. Ideally used when no upper frequency absorption is required/desired. The Range Limiter option is an ideal solution to make a small room sound larger, keeping life within the room. Additional charge per panel for Range Limiter option.

FlexRange Technology Test Results​

 

Duke

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I agree, a large performance space must be impossible to recreate perfectly with two speakers in a small room. A stereo recording in such a space will include reverb tails that give an impression of the space at least.

My understanding is that, in the listening room, there is in effect a "competition" between the "small room signature" of the playback room and the venue acoustics on the recording.

At the risk of oversimplifying, a room's package of spatial signature cues largely consists of three things: The time between the direct sound and the first reflections; the temporal "center of gravity" of the reflections (how much time between the direct sound and the "middle" of the reflections); and the reverberation tails. This applies to the playback room's spatial signature as well as to the recording venue's spatial signature, whether the latter be real or engineered or both. If the goal is a "you are there" presentation, then we want to suppress and/or disrupt the "small room signature" package of cues while simultaneously preserving/enabling the "venue acoustic signature" on the recording.

Here is one possible approach:

Use speakers with a fairly narrow and well-behaved radiation pattern and toe them in severely such that they "miss" the same-side wall, the first significant lateral reflections of each speaker therefore being the long across-the-room bounce off the opposite-side wall. Then if the room is fairly shallow, ideally we'd have something like a large wedge-shaped reflector (or perhaps a diffusor) behind the listening area to re-direct the first reflections off the back wall away from the listening area or at least weaken them. We want to do all of this WITHOUT reliance on absorption or excessive diffusion in the first-reflection zones, to preserve the high frequency content in the reflections.

The arrival time of the direct sound is unaffected, but the arrivals of the lateral (and ideally rear) reflections are pushed back in time significantly. The temporal "center of gravity" of the reflections is also pushed back in time. So the net result is, a somewhat fuzzy package of playback-room-size cues which does not correspond with reality, resulting (theoretically at least) in a "weakening" of the "small room signature" of the playback room. Imo we do NOT want to absorb the reverberation tails in the playback room because they function as the "carriers" for the reverberation tails on the recording.

Turning now to the "venue" package of spatial cues on the recording, unfortunately the venue's first reflections are not ideally presented by the direct sound because the arrival direction is wrong, so we start out with that handicap, but at least the arrival timing is preserved. The venue reflections' "center of gravity" will be effectively presented by the in-room direct sound and subsequent reflections, assuming their spectral content is correct (or close enough). And last but not least, the venue's reverberation tails can do a good job of conveying a sense of venue size (though not venue shape) assuming their spectral content has been (largely) preserved AND they arrive from many different directions. Imo delivering the recording's reverberation tails spectrally-intact and from many directions is the function of the in-room reverberation tails. Note that a good multichannel system uses the surround channels to deliver the venue's reverberation tails from many directions, spectrally intact, and sufficiently LOUD to convey an immersive sense of the venue space. Reliance on ONLY the two stereo channels puts a premium on NOT attenuating the in-room reflections too quickly so that they are still hopefully loud enough, but this aspect IS somewhat recording-dependent.

So if all goes as hoped, the "small room signature" package of cues will have been muddled and weakened because we pushed back the arrival times of many of the first reflections, while the "venue acoustic signature" on the recording, and in particular the "venue size" aspect, will be effectively presented largely due to our preservation of the reverberation tails on the recording. Again if all goes as hoped, the ear/brain system will find the (admittedly imperfect) "venue acoustic signature" package of spatial cues to be more plausible than the somewhat disrupted "small room signature" package of cues, such that the perceived acoustic space will be an approximation of that which is on the recording, assuming the recording contains sufficiently loud venue cues (reflections/reverberation). This would be a "you are there" presentation.

Easier said than done! And obviously still "imperfect" and recording-dependent. Perhaps worthwhile, and perhaps not.

Just to be clear, I am NOT saying this is the ONLY way to arrive at a "you are there" presentation. I'm sure there are smarter people than me who can get there with a wider-pattern speaker than what I have in mind.
 
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Kvalsvoll

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I can tell you with confidence that the answer to that is a solid NO. GIK acoustics claim to fame was very low cost acoustic panels. They were quite active in forums and so built a name for themselves among hobbyists.
I have no first-hand experience with the company or products, so can not comment on that.
 
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