How much will cardioid Genelec W371a improve my audio?

[Mort]

My small 3.3m2 listening room has a lot of glass and square room modes. mdat attached if helpful.

I listen to bass-heavy music and get results I like by toeing in the 8361a monitors and increasing the direct sound ratio (recommended by the GLM grade report). I use a single 15" 7380a sub crossed at 85hz, listen with a 2m equilateral triangle and use GLM DSP. Monitors are 110cm into the room to reduce modes per Genelec.

How much improvement is it reasonable to expect from a W371a cardioid in such a small space? I know I'm deep into diminishing returns.

Will I notice the upgrade? Would you?

 

[tifune]

Send your GRADE report to genelec support and ask. I say that without hesitation because they actually talked me OUT of buying W371's based on my report.

 

[Mort]

Send your GRADE report to genelec support and ask. I say that without hesitation because they actually talked me OUT of buying W371's based on my report.

what reason?

 

[tifune]

what reason?

The FR in my room is "already quite good, and the W371 would make very little difference." My main problem is total lack of absorption, IIRC my RT60 is around 1.25s

 

[MKR]

I am a big fan of full range cardioid and can’t imagine any situation in which it wouldn’t make a positive difference. The question in my mind is rather how much of a difference and if you would be in diminishing returns territory. Only way to know for sure is hear the 371s in your space. Any possibility for a Genelec dealer to provide a demo?

 

[AudioJester]

In a small room below Shroeder frequency, I think cardioid wont be beneficial - it is the room not the radiation pattern of the speakers. Looking at your graph the W371 should help that floor/ceiling bounce dip between 150-300Hz.

A second sub may help that 70Hz dip.

I actually think Dirac ART would give you a near perfect response to 150Hz and eliminate decay -with what you allready have. Much cheaper than W371!

The AsciLabs C8C/BX8C preorder is the same price as a pair of 8631A and the same price as 1 W371!

To be honest when I heard the W371/8361a in a showroom I was underwhelmed. I never got that wow sensation like the first time I heard the 8361a by themselves. I still have not added a sub to my 8361a.

My thoughts are ART +/- switch to Ascilabs over W371. However, there are many W371 users on here who swear by them!

 

[Sokel]

Your response doesn't show that lucks meat, it does show some elevated HF response though (very nearfield maybe?) when some reflections are taken out:

It also shows some asymmetry and some elevated distortion at L (could be environmental though) .
I don't think you need W371A for your room size and based on your measurement mid bass is fairly full, it's highs that are elevated, if more meat (chest punch, that's what W371A can add, easily) and lean sound is what you're after maybe try 8380A?

(count the "maybe"'s! )

 

[Multicore]

Will I notice the upgrade? Would you?

I've no idea if I or you would notice the improvement. But I know there's really nothing else out there to spend twenty grand on apart from a pair of Finish woofers.

 

[RobL]

I thought about getting them when I had my 61’s but it seemed like too much outlay for stereo, which is a flawed presentation to begin with. 20k would build a kick-ass immersive setup though…just saying’

 

[Jiraya369]

would definitely notice the lack of funds at least

 

[Mort]

Any possibility for a Genelec dealer to provide a demo?

Probably not. Good idea though.

A second sub may help that 70Hz dip.

I couldn't eliminate it when I had two subs, although I'm somewhat limited in placement options.

I actually think Dirac ART would give you a near perfect response to 150Hz and eliminate decay -with what you allready have. Much cheaper than W371!

The AsciLabs C8C/BX8C preorder is the same price as a pair of 8631A and the same price as 1 W371!

I had considered this also. Genelec will have higher resale value which somewhat offsets this. And the ones coaxial implementation is superb, not sure how the clarity and soundstage will compare. Still, it's intriguing.

 

[OldHvyMec]

I was going to post a message, but changed my mind. No need for me to point out my recent windfall for a few hours for looking/working.

Thanks, Mod/Amirm

 

[G|force]

Hi Mort,
Speaking of LF cardioid, would you ever consider walking away from Genelec for Ascilab C8C+BX8C? I must admit that I am very intrigued!

 

[Avp1]

My small 3.3m2 listening room has a lot of glass and square room modes. mdat attached if helpful.

3.3m^2 ---- is it a jail cell?

But seriously, your sound WITHOUT DSP looks better than with. You can add a pair of subs and try to tune only them keeping speakers full range. That method helped me to get rid of DSP in main speakers chain, which improved midrange sound too.

 

[Mort]

I've no idea if I or you would notice the improvement. But I know there's really nothing else out there to spend twenty grand on apart from a pair of Finish woofers.

It's not lost on me that I could buy and install a hot tub in my backyard for the same price.
I may just do that and skip the cardiod.

 

[kharan]

It's not lost on me that I could buy and install a hot tub in my backyard for the same price.
I may just do that and skip the cardiod.

Just flip your Genelec sideways. Then you get cardioid-like starting 200 Hz instead of 600 Hz.

 

[Mort]

Your response doesn't show that lucks meat, it does show some elevated HF response though (very nearfield maybe?) when some reflections are taken out:

Thanks for looking. Is that 'lacks bass'?

It does get a good grade report.

I wondered about the HF response too, I'm not sure I saw that before. I should probably remeasure but it's not inconceivable. I am most hopeful cardioid. would smooth out the100-600hz region in this small room.

 

[Mort]

Hi Mort,
Speaking of LF cardioid, would you ever consider walking away from Genelec for Ascilab C8C+BX8C? I must admit that I am very intrigued!

Yeah definitely. It was mentioned upthread.

I'm intrigued too, but probably not. Reseller prices in the US have not been announced, but in France they are $7500/pair. It's a pretty good deal but I'd really like to see them tested first, not so much for frequency response but cardioid performance and soundstage impressions. I still have not ever heard a solid phantom center like I do with the coaxial 'ones'. And it's a version 1.0 - my consumer sensibilities say to let the product mature a bit before I buy.

But compared to the $20k W371a, yeah, it's intriguing.

 

[darth]

I would second the person suggesting to instead go immersive. Which is what I have been doing. For me I have started to enjoy that more than stereo.

Obviously this assumes

1. your room can handle hanging speakers off the ceiling and wiring can be done
2. You use apple music or another service that has multi channel audio
3. You figure out how to drive all that, it's hell if you want to stay all digital (see other threads about audiocontrol Hyperion or the AES/ebu/Dante thread)
4. You have space for yourself to sit after all those speakers get jammed into a small room.

 

[Sokel]

Thanks for looking. Is that 'lacks bass'?

It does get a good grade report.

View attachment 501073

I wondered about the HF response too, I'm not sure I saw that before. I should probably remeasure but it's not inconceivable. I am most hopeful cardioid. would smooth out the100-600hz region in this small room.

No, it does not lack bass, that's what I wrote and most importantly (to me at least, or the purpose of W371A in general) it does not lack mid-bass.

HF response needs attention, it's the balance that counts and this kind of response throws it away if real and not a measurement error.
It looks like you measure horns! (waveguides are little horns but they don't measure like that)