How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

[DanielT]

But with power usually rises noise.

Music: how loud is loud? (video)

Here is a much needed video on the topic of how loud we really listen to music. And issues related to hearing damage, etc. It is an argument that seems to come up twice a day since I started testing headphones. Here, I review the literature on true dynamic range of music and considerations...

www.audiosciencereview.com

According to this a live Jazz concert is >127dB peak for the audience.

So if you want to listen to this Uncompressed and in original volume.
You need over 100KW (or better VA)
View attachment 174423

The question is how low you want to go:

If you only listen at 70dB your missing out on most of the low end.

There is great confusion about this with maximum sound pressure levels because there are so many measurements performed with slow instruments or timeswings, the true peak sound pressures even at normal audience distances to the musicians are monstrously high, which is exactly why listening [home Hifi solution] often sounds extremely tame compared to reality

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Extremt tamt jämfört med verkligheten

 

[BoredErica]

At the end of the day if I'm missing out on low end because I don't listen loudly enough, I don't care at all. Any louder is not enjoyable to me and my ears feel weird. Most live performances are horrendously, unenjoyably, and unfathomably loud. The last thing I want for most of my music to sound like is a live performance, dear god.

 

[DanielT]

At the end of the day if I'm missing out on low end because I don't listen loudly enough, I don't care at all. Any louder is not enjoyable to me and my ears feel weird. Most live performances are horrendously, unenjoyably, and unfathomably loud. The last thing I want for most of my music to sound like is a live performance, dear god.

It's pretty hard not to say impossible if you can get musicians to play quieter. You can do that at home with your Hifi and a recorded live concert. But it is pretty hard to say impossible to get the same dynamics.

Live music (even when played without a microphone, amplifier, speakers) in a room, say a small chamber ensemble sounds so much better than when playing at home. At home, hi-fi is sound reproduction, but it can be reminiscent of reality (it's the reality you are in), if you are a little lucky.

Edit:
Although it's fun to hear a really competent and good Hifi solution. Where the speakers have high SPL, low distortion. Amplifiers with a lot of power and headroom (more headroom), which does not have audible distortion, noise. Which keeps proper control of the speakers.
How incomparably loud you can play with such a solution without getting "sore ears". Then I go home and listen to my gadgets and realize fairly immediately that my bedroom amplifier of 2x30 W together with speakers 89dB 2.83 V / 1M (JPW P1) out in the living room, with dynamic music, nop, it just does not work to turn on too much (without sounding bad). But on the other hand, you should spare your ears and neighbors with that kind of sound.
... Not very high volume, not so demanding music quite ok sound (not "High end" but ok).

 

[wrat]

238.1

 

[Balle Clorin]

The calculator only account for 1 speaker, we have minimum 2 so the required power is half of what i calculated( 2 speaker gives 3dB more than one)

I find this useful.. scroll down...

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter dB/W/m loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Eberhard Sengpiel

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[DanielT]

About the dynamics of classical music, explained.

As said in post # 21, as she also says. It will not be as good as live. But it can be decent anyway and that requires its amplification (if it is recorded with dynamics), from 17:50 and a few minutes ahead into the video when she says: "And the power"

By the way, damn what a singer he was.

 

[jp4573]

I have some TELARC cds. (DDD).

All of them state the signal was not compressed.

https://www.kompaktkiste.de/cover/telarc/telarc80167cd18_1000.jpg


The following image is from Carmina Burana: TELARC CD-80056
(ripped with ExactAudioCopy)

You have to set high volume to hear the quiet passages and of course, without changing the volume you will hear the peaks very loud.

“…whereas the European Broadcasting Union, in EBU3342 Loudness Range, defines dynamic range as the difference between the quietest and loudest volume, a matter of macro-dynamics.”

I think this definition is more logical and not the following:

https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/15016

 

[Balle Clorin]

View attachment 174361
3ft is double my current distance and all I will need unless living circumstances change a lot.
65db SPL is just a guess. I had 65dba when I measured. Factor in bass and peaks, say 25db which is already very generous.
5db for EQ headroom and 5db for when I step away from my computer = 35db.

Speaker sensitivity... Meta 83db rather than 85db spec.

42w ez pz. Don't forget in practice I'm sitting half the distance, so add 6db + wall reinforcement (right speaker is currently near a corner). So the power requirements are a lot lower than that. That's also with 25db DR which is a ton.

At 1.5ft and music with DR15 I get 1w requirement. (Not factoring in walls)

Do you have A link to that calculator?

 

[DanielT]

Some tips on other threads that touch on this, for many, favorite topic from slightly different points of view. Or they touch, more or less, about the same base.

One more calculator,suspects that it is the one that BoredErica uses, which you ask about Balle Clorin :

Peak SPL Calculator

Multiple Amp Questions

Thanks for your time in advance for whatever you can answer. 1. Does Amir do any measurement for speaker amps that explains how much hiss I can expect to hear from a passive speaker when playing nothing? Do I look at power vs distortion and look at THD% for 50mW? I look at the graph below me an...

audiosciencereview.com

Amplifier Power: How much do you really need and your system’s dynamic range.

During my chat with the The Daily HiFi guys this past Monday, the topic of higher sensitivity speakers having more dynamic range came up. I gave my condensed spiel about why I think it isn't the speakers but rather the system as a whole that when integrating higher sensitivity speakers that...

audiosciencereview.com

How much amplifier power is required?

The claim that you really do not need that much amplifier power and that low power amplifiers somehow let you listen deeper into the music is one of those audiophool myths. I just found back the link to the Harbeth video of a demonstration some years ago of their M40.1 flagship speaker in the...

audiosciencereview.com

Edit:
Feel free to use several calculators and compare.It's just good to test with different for a more balanced indication.
Then what PMA mentioned in the thread. Think of the interaction of speakers - amplifiers' ability to handle loads, peaks and valleys in impedance. So it should of course be taken into account when considering this with amplifier, power and sound quality (as well as level THD + Noise and FR generally) and that you have more than one speaker when listening to music. See Balle Clorin's post above, the calculator he links:

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin

Efficiency and sensitivity conversion - loudspeaker percent and dB per watt and meter dB/W/m loudspeaker efficiency versus sensitivity vs speaker sensitivity 1 watt = 2,83 volt box chart - sengpielaudio Eberhard Sengpiel

www.sengpielaudio.com

 

[Galliardist]

These figures tally pretty much with what I would expect in my situation. I don't usually listen above 75dB SPL at my usual listening position, and at that my previous 50W amp was good enough - on upgrading, I can go well over 80dB but I don't want the complaints from my neighbours. The 50W amp gave a hardened sound at 80dB SPL and could easily be detected in a blind test, where 75dB was hard to tell (impossible with most music).

According to the designer of my speakers impedance should never drop below 4 Ohms. I don't have a way to measure that so am taking his word for it.
My requirement is for the equivalent of a good TV image: it shouldn't be at "live" levels, but it should give me sufficient information so I can understand what is going on with the music.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I try afa

View attachment 177505

These figures tally pretty much with what I would expect in my situation. I don't usually listen above 75dB SPL at my usual listening position, and at that my previous 50W amp was good enough - on upgrading, I can go well over 80dB but I don't want the complaints from my neighbours. The 50W amp gave a hardened sound at 80dB SPL and could easily be detected in a blind test, where 75dB was hard to tell (impossible with most music).

According to the designer of my speakers impedance should never drop below 4 Ohms. I don't have a way to measure that so am taking his word for it.
My requirement is for the equivalent of a good TV image: it shouldn't be at "live" levels, but it should give me sufficient information so I can understand what is going on with the music.

I try again, link please.?

 

[Wesayso]

Will I be save with my amp's 2x 400 watt into 8 ohm?

 

[Bugal1998]

Result for main speakers:

My approach...

Listening distance is actual.
105db is as loud as I could ever imagine tolerating momentary peaks.
+5db for eq and +3db headroom.

This ignores crest factor, peak vs rms, program vs rms, room boundery gain, multiple speakers, etc. So in reality power required is likely to be less.

I'm running 1250 watts/driver or 2500 per speaker.

Result for subwoofers:

All factors the same as above except...

115 db peaks
+7db for eq and +3db for headroom

I'll be running 16k watts once the room is complete.

So how did I factor in dynamic range? I didn't. I worked backward from the max spl I would ever likely tolerate and that's it. If the dynamic range of music calls for an enjoyable overall listening level that results in momentary peaks higher than the system above can produce, well that's just too loud.

 

[gnarly]

Ok, i'll play too...here's mine, i don't go this high very often, but occasionally .....I DO ! (usually when wine is amply flowing, (pun intended haha)
......and it's freaking awesome.
Outdoors is unbelievably good, often better than even well done live . Clean, clean, clean ....and loud.

5-way active: sub amp 4000 W, low 2000W, mid 900W, HF 260W, VHF 180 W......per speaker

 

[Lambda]

Wesayso​

I don’t think you will be verry happy with 85dB Peak.

If you want to know know the required amplifier Power form a RMS Listening level in dB(A)
You have to add the Dynamic/Crest from the music and convert from dB(A) to dB.

Or you do it the other way around and see what the true Peak level is.

"there is nothing below 90"
Even un plunged Jazz easily and most of the time over 110dB Peak even >120dB is not uncommon at all.

​

 

[EdTice]

I have some TELARC cds. (DDD).

All of them state the signal was not compressed.

https://www.kompaktkiste.de/cover/telarc/telarc80167cd18_1000.jpg


The following image is from Carmina Burana: TELARC CD-80056
(ripped with ExactAudioCopy)
View attachment 177501
You have to set high volume to hear the quiet passages and of course, without changing the volume you will hear the peaks very loud.

“…whereas the European Broadcasting Union, in EBU3342 Loudness Range, defines dynamic range as the difference between the quietest and loudest volume, a matter of macro-dynamics.”

I think this definition is more logical and not the following:

https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/15016

There are two problems with this definition, though. You could have a terrible DR throughout the whole track (say a constant banging of timpani) and then a one second quiet pause followed by a small ding on a triangle, another one second pause, and then back to a cacophony. The track would get a very high DR score but not really have DR. Also if you can hear the musicians turn the page, does that count as part of the quietest volume? You now have to have a way to adjudicate what is part of the performance and what is unwanted noise floor!

 

[Galliardist]

I try afa

I try again, link please.?

Sorry, missed this somehow... the link is right at the top of the first post in the thread.

When I try to put it in again here, it doesn't work - but it still does from there

 

[DanielT]

Sorry, missed this somehow... the link is right at the top of the first post in the thread.

When I try to put it in again here, it doesn't work - but it still does from there

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

www.mh-audio.nl

I also add another ....

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

Then it would be interesting to know. How much power does an amplifier need FOR EACH PART with this type of range of dynamic music
Example, two subwoofers and a pair of two-way speakers (crossoverpoint 3 kHz) . With LP-HP filter, crossoverpoint 80 HZ, 24dB sub to two-wave speaker. How much power to the subwoffers, to the bass driver and the tweeter in the two-wave speaker?

Those calculators give an indication. But they are not for the "small print". In addition, the ability of amplifiers to handle tough loads, that is, speakers that drop in Ohm is not addressed. So there is more to weigh in.

 

[EdTice]

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

www.mh-audio.nl

I also add another ....

Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers | English (US)

www.crownaudio.com

Then it would be interesting to know. How much power does an amplifier need FOR EACH PART with this type of range of dynamic music
Example, two subwoofers and a pair of two-way speakers (crossoverpoint 3 kHz) . With LP-HP filter, crossoverpoint 80 HZ, 24dB sub to two-wave speaker. How much power to the subwoffers, to the bass driver and the tweeter in the two-wave speaker?

Those calculators give an indication. But they are not for the "small print". In addition, the ability of amplifiers to handle tough loads, that is, speakers that drop in Ohm is not addressed. So there is more to weigh in.

The crown page is largely targeted at pro audio where larger, lower-excursion speakers are used. For HiFi, we can use them to get a good estimate. This is not universally true but, in general, PA speakers are less reactive than HiFi speakers. And most PA amplifiers can drive 2 ohm loads. Even low-end PA speakers have some sort of overload protection.

 

[DanielT]

PA has its challenges and you should perhaps not mix PA and home Hifi. Although for home Hifi you can use some PA stuff (I doubt, however, that deiked home Hifi is used in PA). What I mainly think of is the powerful PA amps that power subwoffers for home Hifi use.

Speaking of live vs sound reproduction for home HiFi, what is mentioned earlier in the thread that it is not possible to achieve the same dynamics. How long could a home HiFi solution be a bit close here? There are more and more instruments and voices in the video, the longer it lasts. How many instruments and voices, plus more powerfully played, performed by the musicians and songs in the video, are needed before home HiFin is not even close? You can think about that.
Of course it is outdoors so it is not possible to directly compare but still).

Edit:
PA amps, disadvantages: They can in themselves have fans that sound and are ugly as beatings ... although you can, hopefully, hide it so you do not see it.

Edit 2:
Maybe a little more reasonable. Recording of this, then playback in the same room via Hifi listening / solution. How close can you get to reality?