• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required as is 20 years of participation in forums (not all true). There are daily reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

How much power does an amplifier need with this type of range of dynamic music

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
3,493
Likes
3,019
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
Feel free to use this calculator. Add sensitivity to the speaker and then tell which effect you have chosen and why. Weigh in that you want some headroom.


You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you reason.

shot_2021-12-24_07-57-08.png



Some general information about dynamic range:

The term dynamic range may be confusing in audio production because it has two conflicting definitions, particularly in the understanding of the loudness war phenomenon.[32][33] Dynamic range may refer to micro-dynamics,[34][35][36] related to crest factor,[37][38] whereas the European Broadcasting Union, in EBU3342 Loudness Range, defines dynamic range as the difference between the quietest and loudest volume, a matter of macro-dynamics.[32][33][39][40][41][42]


Inspiration for this thread comes from Tonicollinet's post # 2513 in this thread.And the discussion that followed.
Today is Christmas Eve, so Merry Christmas to All! :) ...You in the US have Christmas Eve tomorrow, if I remember correctly.
I will because of that not write more in this thread today (other stuff going on today) but write if you want.

 
Last edited:

BoredErica

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
565
Likes
783
Location
USA
1640330476855.png

3ft is double my current distance and all I will need unless living circumstances change a lot.
65db SPL is just a guess. I had 65dba when I measured. Factor in bass and peaks, say 25db which is already very generous.
5db for EQ headroom and 5db for when I step away from my computer = 35db.

Speaker sensitivity... Meta 83db rather than 85db spec.

42w ez pz. Don't forget in practice I'm sitting half the distance, so add 6db + wall reinforcement (right speaker is currently near a corner). So the power requirements are a lot lower than that. That's also with 25db DR which is a ton.

At 1.5ft and music with DR15 I get 1w requirement. (Not factoring in walls)
 
OP
DanielT

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
3,493
Likes
3,019
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
View attachment 174361
3ft is double my current distance and all I will need unless living circumstances change a lot.
65db SPL is just a guess. I had 65dba when I measured. Factor in bass and peaks, say 25db which is already very generous.
5db for EQ headroom and 5db for when I step away from my computer = 35db.

Speaker sensitivity... Meta 83db rather than 85db spec.

42w ez pz. Don't forget in practice I'm sitting half the distance, so add 6db + wall reinforcement (right speaker is currently near a corner). So the power requirements are a lot lower than that. That's also with 25db DR which is a ton.

At 1.5ft and music with DR15 I get 1w requirement. (Not factoring in walls)
Interesting, thanks BoredErica.

Here may be a little more support for your thoughts and calculations:

shot_2021-12-24_08-33-22.png


Here may be a little more support for your thoughts and calculations.

Dynamic Range Across Music Genres and the Perception of Dynamic Compression in Hearing-Impaired Listeners


I know I said.. I will because of that not write more in this thread today (other stuff going on today) but write if you want..... but just one more post ..:D
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pma

0bs3rv3r

Active Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
245
Likes
221
1640333067613.png


My logic in chosing these values is this. Not many recordings (only a handful) in that list have DR over about 25 dB, so that's what I chose to use for headroom. Now, having chosen that, the desired sound pressure level is that wanted for the quiet passages. I chose 65db as that somewhere between speech and a vacuum cleaner, and that is LOUD for a quiet passage, hence more than I need.
 

Moosi

Active Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2021
Messages
201
Likes
99
Well, how do you calculate the resistance of the speakers? Some go down to 2ohm, which most amplifiers can't even handle.
 

BoredErica

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
565
Likes
783
Location
USA
Well, how do you calculate the resistance of the speakers? Some go down to 2ohm, which most amplifiers can't even handle.
I don't think you calculate it. Rather someone measures it (like Amir's reviews).
 

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
3,313
Likes
6,908
Location
Prague
Interesting. How did you decide on 96db ?

By recording amplifier output voltage waveforms and measuring SPL with Sound level meter when playing classical music with high dynamic range.

Well, how do you calculate the resistance of the speakers? Some go down to 2ohm, which most amplifiers can't even handle.

From measured impedance plot. BTW, a good amplifier must "handle" 2ohm load! I would never use an amplifier that cannot do so.
 

BoredErica

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 15, 2019
Messages
565
Likes
783
Location
USA
Went to review index on this site, searched for passive, sorted by score with sub. All top 14 speakers had 3ohm impedance at lowest or above. Most speakers don't go to 2ohms. If you think you might want a speaker that goes that low or you want that headroom then so be it.
 
Last edited:

pma

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 23, 2019
Messages
3,313
Likes
6,908
Location
Prague
Went to review index on this site, searched for passive, sorted by score with sub. All top 14 speakers had 3ohm impedance at lowest or above. Most speakers don't go to 2ohms. If you think you might want a speaker that goes that low or you want that headroom then so be it.

Many speakers are not listed here and go below 3 ohm. This is not so important. The important thing is you need to look at EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation resistance), not at impedance magnitude plot only. Speaker is a complex impedance and phase of complex impedance (or imaginary part of impedance) must not be omitted, otherwise the results are wrong. There is still a lot to learn, and not only from ASR reviews and threads.

1640338094698.png


Magnitude - brown, EPDR - green, Phase - dotted green
 
Last edited:

Lambda

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
1,628
Likes
1,368
How Dynamic is the music your actually listening to?

You can select music from this list. Or something else, but in that case tell us how you reason.
Good start but your forgetting one big point.
We don't her every frequency wit with same loudness.

Therefore Dynamic range can be very misleading if to what we experience.
For example:
There can be a lot of sub bass all the time and a view very loud Snare drum hits. it wont measure with an high dynamic range but sound dynamic.
or the other extreme.
A very compressed track at low volume with a view loud sub bass kicks. won't sound dynamic butt measures dynamic.

Therefore you need to know the Peak,average and RMS level of the (A) weighted track as well as the un weighted

The desired Listening level shuld be in dBA RMS. but for the peak power you need the unweighted peak.

A typical Pop music track might have +1dBFS inter sample over peaks
An RMS of -14dBFS and -19dB(A)FS
In this case you would need 20dB "headroom" for something that is considered flat and compressed.
 
Last edited:

0bs3rv3r

Active Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2019
Messages
245
Likes
221
By recording amplifier output voltage waveforms and measuring SPL with Sound level meter when playing classical music with high dynamic range.

I am looking at the set of graphs above in post #3, in particular the one for an orchestra, and they don't go above 80 dB.
 

maty

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 12, 2017
Messages
4,136
Likes
2,801
Location
Tarragona (Spain)
"they don't go above 80 dB"

80 dBSPL continuous

I have a lot of vinyl records with tracks of DR15 or more. I want:

=> 80 + 15 = 95 dBSPL peak
 

pjug

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 2, 2019
Messages
1,587
Likes
1,353
Don't you want to use crest factor instead of DR?
 

Lambda

Major Contributor
Joined
Mar 22, 2020
Messages
1,628
Likes
1,368
Power is cheap this days, get more than you need, and forget that parameter.
But with power usually rises noise.

According to this a live Jazz concert is >127dB peak for the audience.

So if you want to listen to this Uncompressed and in original volume.
You need over 100KW (or better VA)
1640354467784.png


The question is how low you want to go:
1280px-FletcherMunson_ELC.svg.png


If you only listen at 70dB your missing out on most of the low end.
 
Last edited:
OP
DanielT

DanielT

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 10, 2020
Messages
3,493
Likes
3,019
Location
Sweden - Слава Україні
Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in! Thank you for your response and interesting answers.:)

Many speakers are not listed here and go below 3 ohm. This is not so important. The important thing is you need to look at EPDR (equivalent peak dissipation resistance), not at impedance magnitude plot only. Speaker is a complex impedance and phase of complex impedance (or imaginary part of impedance) must not be omitted, otherwise the results are wrong. There is still a lot to learn, and not only from ASR reviews and threads.

View attachment 174386

Magnitude - brown, EPDR - green, Phase - dotted green

I'm thinking about that. Maybe 8 Ohm speakers, nominal, average 8 Ohm. Of course an amplifier that has enough power in 8 Ohm is perhaps more expensive than amplifiers that drive speakers in 4 Ohm, but 8 Ohm speakers should not dip so deep in Ohm. That should be an advantage. Or what do you think? It may not be possible to generalize in that way.But then maybe the speaker swings higher up in Ohm? It might not be so good, but... hm no I lack the knowledge to guess about.:)

There can be a lot of sub bass all the time and a view very loud Snare drum hits. it wont measure with an high dynamic range but sound dynamic.
or the other extreme.
Therefore designated subwoofer with ditto suitable powerful sub amp.

Power is cheap this days, get more than you need, and forget that parameter.
As long as it is "pure" watts so absolute. Inaudible distortion / noise that is.

I am looking at the set of graphs above in post #3, in particular the one for an orchestra, and they don't go above 80 dB.

Unfortunately, I can not help you with that. There was only one a page / graph I found when I googled.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom