How Much is Undoubtedly Too Much?

[polocolo]

Hey!
So this is a very naive question I suppose. I couldn't find any thread that would gather answers to that question so I tried that thread. Sorry if it's uninteresting and feel free, of course, to delete it if it's been answered before.

Just like for many people I suppose, hanging out here really changed my perspective on the industry and the cost of things. So I can't help but ask this even though it's overly simplistic.

I had difficulties naming the thread, it might be a little cryptic, but I'm wondering:

What is the maximum budget one should have if they only care about audio quality? From what amount can you say: "yeah, this person is paying for more than just audio quality, they're paying for status, pride of ownership, UI/UX, symbols, beliefs, whatever"

Let's say: without room treatment. I'm talking purely electronics and speakers. No need to count the cables, since it'll be 30 bucks.
And let's picture a normal size room 15sqm - 25 sqm.

I guess another way of saying it is: how cheap is the cheapest state of the art system one can aspire to?

 

[Purité Audio]

State of the art electronics are relatively inexpensive, loudspeakers become more expensive as they play louder and deeper.
A fine measuring 2-way loudspeaker is again not that expensive, I suppose it depends upon your definition of SOTA.

Keith

 

[Ropeburn]

Of course that's highly subjective and hard to pinpoint. Perhaps a better measure would be "point of diminishing returns"? Above which you mainly pay for the things you mentioned, and most of all physical quality (casework and design on amps, cabinet finish on speakers, etc.), but not for very noticeable audio quality gains anymore.

I'd say this point starts at around 2000-3000 the pair for speakers (pair, floorstanders), at 5000-6000 at the latest. Of course that's just my overall impression.

 

[polocolo]

State of the art electronics are relatively inexpensive, loudspeakers become more expensive as they play louder and deeper.
A fine measuring 2-way loudspeaker is again not that expensive, I suppose it depends upon your definition of SOTA.

Keith

Yes I understand my question is far too vague... I kinda knew it when I posted it but couldn't help but ask anyway, and thought I might get some interesting insights...

But, like, when you say "a fine measuring 2-way loudspeaker is not that expensive" : how much are you talking about?
and some speakers well reviewed here are super expensive.

When Amir recommends a 15K speakers, I suppose it means the speakers are better than (at least some of) the ones he recommend at 1K, right? We wouldn't recommend 10K speakers that do not bring anything to what a 1k speaker brings, right?

 

[polocolo]

Of course that's highly subjective and hard to pinpoint. Perhaps a better measure would be "point of diminishing returns"? Above which you mainly pay for the things you mentioned, and most of all physical quality (casework and design on amps, cabinet finish on speakers, etc.), but not for very noticeable audio quality gains anymore.

I'd say this point starts at around 2000-3000 the pair for speakers (pair, floorstanders), at 5000-6000 at the latest. Of course that's just my overall impression.

yes, thank you, that's another way to look at it.

I suppose, all things considered, more powerful amps are generally more expensive.

 

[Somafunk]

A Wiim Ultra and Kali IN-8 active 3 way monitors for £650 could be considered cheap/state of the art, add in the Kali WS-6.2 subwoofer for an extra £400 bringing the total to £1050 and you’d have a killer midfield system

 

[levimax]

If you got a pair of speakers like Neuman KH420, Genelec 8361A, or D&D 8C with a couple of active subs to smooth out the bass and a streamer your would be in for ~$15,000 which would give you close to SOTA sound which would be difficult to improve on without serious room treatment / custom room design.

 

[digitalfrost]

I think the highend offerings of Genelec, KH, Kii, Dutch+Dutch, Revel, KEF etc are all valid products that can objectively show better performance than other things. So I think spending 10-15k on a pair of speakers is excessive, but not stupid. Above 20k it becomes ridiculous and we could argue that even below that you would be better off spending some money on room acoustics and subwoofers + DSP.

 

[restorer-john]

I suppose, all things considered, more powerful amps are generally more expensive.

Powerful, very high quality build and performance amplifiers are expensive for sure.

 

[Doodski]

I think for the meat and potatoes without the fluff and getting about 80%+ of the sound quality around $3100.00 including amplification, a DAC and speakers and then use the existing PC as a source and PEQ control.

 

[polocolo]

A Wiim Ultra and Kali IN-8 active 3 way monitors for £650 could be considered cheap/state of the art, add in the Kali WS-6.2 subwoofer for an extra £400 bringing the total to £1050 and you’d have a killer midfield system

oh damn, ok, that's really not expensive, thanks!

 

[polocolo]

Powerful, very high quality build and performance amplifiers are expensive for sure.

oh yeah? I had the feeling from hanging out here that some very well performing class D amps were affordable

 

[Doodski]

oh yeah? I had the feeling from hanging out here that some very well performing class D amps were affordable

I used a $1000 amp for my estimate of a system. Class D would be the focus.

 

[polocolo]

I think for the meat and potatoes without the fluff and getting about 80%+ of the sound quality around $3100.00 including amplification, a DAC and speakers and then use the existing PC as a source and PEQ control.

Oh thank you, that's a very direct and informing answer. Among these 3000, how much would go to the speakers? 75%?

 

[Doodski]

Oh thank you, that's a very direct and informing answer. Among these 3000, how much would go to the speakers? 75%?

$2000 for speakers, $1000 for a class D amp and $100 for a DAC.

 

[polocolo]

I used a $1000 amp for my estimate of a system. Class D would be the focus.

great, thanks, that's what I thought.

 

[polocolo]

If you got a pair of speakers like Neuman KH420, Genelec 8361A, or D&D 8C with a couple of active subs to smooth out the bass and a streamer your would be in for ~$15,000 which would give you close to SOTA sound which would be difficult to improve on without serious room treatment / custom room design.

Oh ok, thank you for this answer. So that's interesting, cause, evidently, if you consider that the D&D 8c could be presented as an "purely audio choice", as in, the sound quality if provides is worth the whole 15K I spend on them, then it changes a little bit the curve/point of diminishing returns, I suppose

 

[VMAT4]

These would be near enough for many folks. I think one may need to spend a little on a streamer to have a complete system. But then building a complete system is a lot like picking ties. Personal taste plays a large role.

 

[restorer-john]

oh yeah? I had the feeling from hanging out here that some very well performing class D amps were affordable

Show me a single instance of a very high quality build. They really are just modules in boxes with a bare minimum of money spent on front panel design, operational ease or superb ergonomics, controls and features. Two sets of switched speakers? Good luck. You'd need to step up to maybe a NAD class D to get some of that.

Most Class Ds sold at affordable prices are one step above DIY.

Show me some affordable Class Ds in a box with level controls/gain controls, power switches and input options, along with status indicators on the front panels. Most are on the back panels, using cheap toggles, PCB mounted trimpots, or worse, even DIP switches. Some are so poverty-pack they put the options switches on the base panel.

If I have to reach around the back to turn on or off a piece of HiFi- it's junk to me.

 

[polocolo]

I think the highend offerings of Genelec, KH, Kii, Dutch+Dutch, Revel, KEF etc are all valid products that can objectively show better performance than other things. So I think spending 10-15k on a pair of speakers is excessive, but not stupid. Above 20k it becomes ridiculous and we could argue that even below that you would be better off spending some money on room acoustics and subwoofers + DSP.

yes, cause these can get REALLY expensive! But I take from your message that there is a case to be made that someone can spend 15k on speakers for good "audio only" reasons