How much does speaker performance degrade over time?

[MAB]

I own speakers that are pretty old - some are 25 years old and the newest one is perhaps 20 almost

What parts degrade?

I know the foam surrounds will go first. In fact, the foam surrounds on my speakers cracked and I replaced them with new drivers from B&W. The surrounds on the ones I have not replaced seem a bit less flexible - I think the gray foam is more prone to rot than the black one.

I know electrolytic caps can also degrade over time but I'm not sure my speakers have them in their crossover.

What else can go bad? Drivers generate heat (didn't know that until recently)- do bass drivers get bad over time?

And when do you decide to upgrade? I was watching a review of a speaker from the same series that's 20+ years old and it was holding its own against newer KEF models.

Should I just replace all the existing midrange drivers?

I got a pair of nearly 50 year old Yamaha speakers a while ago, they had been stored in a shed in rural Oregon for over a decade. They cleaned up just fine. I measured them and compared to Yamaha's detailed measurements in their extensive documentation. The tweeters measure very close to the original spec. The woofers both play fine, even though I don't have original Yamaha measurements. The woofers certainly match each other. I even removed one of the crossover electrolytics, it tests as it should so I replaced it.

They are certainly very high quality speakers made from beautiful marine plywood cabinets, and high spec drivers. They sound odd due to Yamaha's bizarre thought process at the time about sound reproduction. But aged nicely, they play classical music for my mom and her dog in her bedroom so they make me happy.

As mentioned, ferrofluid can turn to tar. Seas (for example) made many tweeters back in the '90s with ferrofluid that dries drastically, I have a pair of Seas Excel tweeters with the fluid turned to the consistency asphalt. My more modern units from them seem to age better.

I have several vintage speakers and enjoy them, even the ones like the Yamahas that never sounded very good.

 

[MattHooper]

As mentioned, ferrofluid can turn to tar. Seas (for example) made many tweeters back in the '90s with ferrofluid that dries drastically, I have a pair of Seas Excel tweeters with the fluid turned to the consistency asphalt. My more modern units from them seem to age better.

That may be just check about the tweeters used in my Joseph Audio speakers.
They use a SEAS Excel Millennium tweeter using a 1" Sonatex, impregnated-fabric dome. Turns out this tweeter does not use ferrofluid, which is good because these are my end-game speakers that have to last the rest of my life.

(And they seem to be great tweeters. The highs are as smooth and grain free as any speaker I’ve ever heard. A constant pleasure.)

 

[MAB]

That may be just check about the tweeters used in my Joseph Audio speakers.
They use a SEAS Excel Millennium tweeter using a 1" Sonatex, impregnated-fabric dome. Turns out this tweeter does not use ferrofluid, which is good because these are my end-game speakers that have to last the rest of my life.

(And they seem to be great tweeters. The highs are as smooth and grain free as any speaker I’ve ever heard. A constant pleasure.)

Hmm... Those Seas tweeters actually specifically use ferrofluid.

https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=50&Itemid=247

Unless it was removed. I have many of them. I posted a rebuild somewhere on ASR of the exact model (T25CF002, the F stands for Ferrofluid for example).
They are very good tweeters, even if a bit old-school in some respects.

 

[MattHooper]

Hmm... Those Seas tweeters actually specifically use ferrofluid.

https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=50&Itemid=247

View attachment 509556

Unless it was removed. I have many of them. I posted a rebuild somewhere on ASR of the exact model (T25CF002, the F stands for Ferrofluid for example).
They are very good tweeters, even if a bit old-school in some respects.

Ah yes. ChatGPT failed me, and I thought it never lies !

Thanks for the info. I’m doomed!

Looks like it’s this one:

https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360

 

[MAB]

Ah yes. ChatGPT failed me, and I thought it never lies !

Thanks for the info. I’m doomed!

Looks like it’s this one:

https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360

View attachment 509557

Replacement diaphragms are available.

SEAS H9929 Voice Coil for T25CF-002

SEAS H9929 Voice Coil for T25CF-002. Available at Madisound. Expert advice and competitive pricing. Contact us.

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

And if the only issue is dried ferrofluid, that is actually easy to replace, unless you ganked them like I did on one pair that was used in a high-power application with a very low crossover point and turned the fluid to roofing tar consistency.

The rebuild is actually quite simple. I've rebuilt several. Like I said, I posted one on ASR, with measurements comparing to it's sibling. At some point I will find that post...

Also, I heard that Seas addressed the problem of ferrofluid that dried prematurely. But as all things I am not sure what to make of that anecdote.

 

[mhardy6647]

Ah yes. ChatGPT failed me, and I thought it never lies !

I have lost my faith in silicon.

 

[MattHooper]

Replacement diaphragms are available.

SEAS H9929 Voice Coil for T25CF-002

SEAS H9929 Voice Coil for T25CF-002. Available at Madisound. Expert advice and competitive pricing. Contact us.

www.madisoundspeakerstore.com

And if the only issue is dried ferrofluid, that is actually easy to replace, unless you ganked them like I did on one pair that was used in a high-power application with a very low crossover point and turned the fluid to roofing tar consistency.

The rebuild is actually quite simple. I've rebuilt several. Like I said, I posted one on ASR, with measurements comparing to it's sibling. At some point I will find that post...

Also, I heard that Seas addressed the problem of ferrofluid that dried prematurely. But as all things I am not sure what to make of that anecdote.

That’s good to know. Apparently the newer SEAS Graphene drivers were meant to address corrosion (particularly in warm climates), I don’t know if they’ve revamped anything about these tweeters.

Is drying out ferrofluid something that will inevitably happen over time, or is it only a possibility? Also, is there any ballpark estimate as to how long the tweeters would operate properly before the ferrofluid drying issue arises?

 

[Grimoire]

I have lost my faith in silicon.

View attachment 509563

Indeed.

I prefer non-binary computing, like ChatLGBTQ+.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Hello Matt Hooper! haven't seen you post in awhile. Now getting back on topic, I think when you are looking at replacing these drivers and tweeters you are missing the perfect chance to go buy new speakers. Remember any excuse to buy new ones is a good excuse! If you are in the high dollar crowd then you know your end game speakers are the next speakers you will buy....and after that the next speakers you will buy. We all chase our tails with audio. I love checking out new gear even if I can't afford any of it.

 

[kyuu]

I am -- in all seriousness (!) -- glad to see that this thread has attracted @MattHooper.
He's been kinda quiet lately; nice to see a coupla posts from him today!

Yes, but have you noticed his posts aren't 10-page essays? Something is definitely wrong.

 

[techsamurai]

Ah yes. ChatGPT failed me, and I thought it never lies !

Thanks for the info. I’m doomed!

Looks like it’s this one:

https://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=367:e0011-06-t25cf002&catid=50:excel-tweeters&Itemid=360

View attachment 509557

That;'s a beautiful speaker what is it? Is it the Thiel?

 

[MattHooper]

That;'s a beautiful speaker what is it? Is it the Thiel?

Those are my Joseph Audio Perspective2 Graphene speakers, photos here.

They are one of the most beautiful finished speakers I personally have seen in person, so I’m quite happy.

Here are the Thiels occupying the same position in the room.

And I feel similarly about those as well, which is why I didn’t get rid of them when I got the Joseph speakers.

 

[Jim Taylor]

To me, the KG-4’s sound as good as new.

If you heard them in 1985, two things would be true. First, your memory is unreliable over 41 years. Second, your hearing has changed over 41 years, and you can't trust anything to sound the same.
If you didn't hear them in 1985, how do you know what they sounded like new?

 

[MAB]

That’s good to know. Apparently the newer SEAS Graphene drivers were meant to address corrosion (particularly in warm climates), I don’t know if they’ve revamped anything about these tweeters.

Is drying out ferrofluid something that will inevitably happen over time, or is it only a possibility? Also, is there any ballpark estimate as to how long the tweeters would operate properly before the ferrofluid drying issue arises?

I have two different versions of the tweeter, the changes appear to be cosmetic since they all measure very similar.
I have multiple versions of some of their Excel woofers, which do measure differently than the original versions.
I'm a little unclear since Seas has revised drivers and have at least two spec sheets. for the woofers

I used my original pair for 15 years before I noticed changes. They spent most of their life in a very low crossover, below Seas' recommendation of 2.5kHz minimum which had to be responsible for part of the drying. They did get used daily. Archimago has a good writeup on his 12 year old Pardigms:

DIY: Tweeter Ferrofluid Change - with pre- and post- frequency & distortion changes. And on-line amiability among hobbyists.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[MattHooper]

Hello Matt Hooper! haven't seen you post in awhile. Now getting back on topic, I think when you are looking at replacing these drivers and tweeters you are missing the perfect chance to go buy new speakers. Remember any excuse to buy new ones is a good excuse! If you are in the high dollar crowd then you know your end game speakers are the next speakers you will buy....and after that the next speakers you will buy. We all chase our tails with audio. I love checking out new gear even if I can't afford any of it.

I certainly know what you mean, but no I’m definitely done. I’m not in the position financially to buy new speakers like this anymore right now, so I certainly won’t be years down the line if I have to replace the drivers. But that’s fine. I am extremely happy where I ended up at the end of my audio journey.

Yes, but have you noticed his posts aren't 10-page essays? Something is definitely wrong.

Ha! Yes THERE IS.

Stamina levels lead me to be more selective.
Actually the Steve Hoffman forum has recently been the recipient of some of my longer replies. I love ASR, but sometimes it’s fun to hang out in the other forums too where I can just let my hair down and exchange subjective experiences with other audio nuts about gear without the demand of measurements (doesn’t mean that I buy in to the woo believed by some others there though, but believe it or not, there are some pretty sensible folk on SHF as well).

 

[tineared]

Actually the Steve Hoffman forum has recently been the recipient of some of my longer replies. I love ASR, but sometimes it’s fun to hang out in the other forums too where I can just let my hair down and exchange subjective experiences with other audio nuts about gear without the demand of measurements (doesn’t mean that I buy in to the woo believed by some others there though, but believe it or not, there are some pretty sensible folk on SHF as well).

So you found that lifting the veil during audio discussions has revealed things you've never heard before

 

[MattHooper]

So you found that lifting the veil during audio discussions has revealed things you've never heard before?

Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding the question. Could you rephrase?

 

[tineared]

Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding the question. Could you rephrase?

It was an attempt at humor by using audiosmooze jargon to describe your alternate forum discussion. Evidently it was a failed attempt...

 

[Grimoire]

Sure, I heard them in 1985.

Wanted to buy a pair but frequent deployments in the U.S. Navy got in the way.

How did you come to the conclusion that my memory is unreliable after 41 years if you’ve never even met me before?

Maybe my hearing has changed some. According to the audiologist at the VA hospital, my hearing is in excellent condition considering that I spent over 20 years on active duty.

I stand by my original statement.

Audio memory lasts seconds, not decades.

 

[MattHooper]

So you forget what you heard just seconds ago?

You need to have your hearing (and brain) checked.

Yes, that claim could’ve been a little more nuanced