How much does speaker performance degrade over time?

[Ktacos]

Well, a youtuber did an upgrade of a JBL standmount crossover and swapped existing cheap parts with more expensive ones and the recording showed clear differences elevating the speaker that sounded quite muffled before that. He spent $100 for the main part and $72 for optional parts (less important).

If the difference was this stark, that person did something wrong. You should really not be able to tell a difference between components of the same values. There may be very minor differences in resistive properties of the components but that typically does not result in any sort of clear or obvious differences.

I'd love to see that video.

 

[Chrispy]

Well, a youtuber did an upgrade of a JBL standmount crossover and swapped existing cheap parts with more expensive ones and the recording showed clear differences elevating the speaker that sounded quite muffled before that. He spent $100 for the main part and $72 for optional parts (less important).

I'm sure all my speakers have a second order crossover. I wouldn't mind spending a few hundred for my LR (as those could probably reach 800 level performance with that, if not better), possibly more and a few hundred for my center which probably has a few more parts in the crossover being a 2.5 way.

The surrounds just a couple of polycaps may do the trick but that might be overkill. I'd like to make the upgrade but I'm afraid of taking it apart

I do wonder how long they'll last. I didn't even know about the tweeter possibly having issues. I'm definitely considering replacing the main drivers in the remaining pair.

Got a link to the youtube video?

Look thru this thread yet? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-upgrade-in-crossover-is-it-audible.12287/

 

[techsamurai]

If the difference was this stark, that person did something wrong. You should really not be able to tell a difference between components of the same values. There may be very minor differences in resistive properties of the components but that typically does not result in any sort of clear or obvious differences.

I'd love to see that video.

Well, don't quote me. He swapped electrolytic caps and iron core inductors for the woofer with 18-gaugeDayton and Jensen air core inductors and clarity cap esa capacitors and some Dayton and Audyn polycaps. He also replaced the Suncast resistors with Dayton's Precision resistors.

It sounds to me that he didn't redesign the entire crossover but instead just swapped each component with a much higher quality parts.

 

[Ktacos]

Well, don't quote me. He swapped electrolytic caps and iron core inductors for the woofer with 18-gaugeDayton and Jensen air core inductors and clarity cap esa capacitors and some Dayton and Audyn polycaps. He also replaced the Suncast resistors with Dayton's Precision resistors.

It sounds to me that he didn't redesign the entire crossover but instead just swapped each component with a much higher quality parts.

None of that would result in the changes you've described. I'm not sure who else I can even quote here, you're the only one making the claims from the video, but no video so there isn't much to work with. I bet they just miswired something.

 

[Waxx]

Driver cones, when made from paper will also harden, especially when doped, but it's a very slow process, that takes decades. Spiders and surrounds (if they are foam) will be gone way earlier. I've seen some metal cones corrode also, but it's also very rare.

Coils and resistors are almost never a problem, old elco's and certain type of very old waxed paper filmcaps can go bad. Metalised film caps can also change value, but it also takes a lot of decades in a speaker crossover to get there.

 

[mhardy6647]

So, switching the parts in the crossover from the cheap or "cheezy" parts does not always improve the sound?

In the broadest sense, that is correct.

In specific cases - I would say that replacing a 40 year old nonpolar electrolytic with a fresh film capacitor of the correct C and ESR values for the design of the crossover will often improve performance qualitatively and quantitatively.

But, as Epimenides the Cretan (not cretin! ) might have put it: All generalizations are false, including this one.

______________
* The tolerances on the capacitance spec for electrolytic capacitors in the 1960s and 70s were often +/- 50%, or even 'worse' (i.e., wider). Some loudspeaker manufacturers would select parts with a tighter in-house spec, but many probably didn't.

 

[techsamurai]

Got a link to the youtube video?

Look thru this thread yet? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-upgrade-in-crossover-is-it-audible.12287/

Thanks! I'm going to take a wild guess with near 100% confidence and assume they are completely inaudible Well, I looked at the charts.

If they are inaudible, then why does the ELAC Debut 3.0 have a crossover that seems to have more parts than $1 million speakers? Why are they using such a heavy driver instead a 3+lb driver like the 606 does now?

 

[Chrispy]

Thanks! I'm going to take a wild guess with near 100% confidence and assume they are completely inaudible Well, I looked at the charts.

If they are inaudible, then why does the ELAC Debut 3.0 have a crossover that seems to have more parts than $1 million speakers? Why are they using such a heavy driver instead a 3+lb driver like the 606 does now?

I'm not a speaker crossover designer, altho hopefully one can fill you in. I suspect it has to do with compromises of some sort, altho price alone doesn't mean much.

 

[tineared]

While I have no way of knowing whether my 33+ year old NHT 3.3 speakers measure the same now as they did when they were new,
I can say without a doubt that they play amazingly clear at all volume levels.
Any degradation that may have occurred to any of the drivers or in the crossover circuitry is completely undetectable by me.
The same is true of my 30 year old Parasound HCA-3500 amplifier that drives them.

 

[Ktacos]

If they are inaudible, then why does the ELAC Debut 3.0 have a crossover that seems to have more parts than $1 million speakers? Why are they using such a heavy driver instead a 3lb driver like the 606 does now?

The crossover circuit is not in question here, just the idea that fancy parts will make a difference even if using the same circuit.

Why do some speakers have more components than others? It's simply a result of what the designer thought the speaker needed to achieve their target. Sometimes you can do it with just two components, sometimes it takes 10. It all depends on how much correction to the drivers unfiltered response you want to do.

 

[Chrispy]

While I have no way of knowing whether my 33+ year old NHT 3.3 speakers measure the same now as they did when they were new,
I can say without a doubt that they play amazingly clear at all volume levels.
Any degradation that may have occurred to any of the drivers or in the crossover circuitry is completely undetectable by me.
The same is true of my 30 year old Parasound HCA-3500 amplifier that drives them.

Let alone our own hearing declines

 

[tineared]

Let alone our own hearing declines

As long as any degradation is not detectable by me or anyone who hears them, I don't give a rat's ass

 

[mhardy6647]

Just to illustrate the bad old days of electrolytics...
with two nontrivial caveats.
caveat 1 This is not a nonpolar (bipolar) electrolytic (i.e., not a crossover capacitor).
caveat 2 This multisection can cap has tighter tolerance than I previously mentioned.

I went downstairs and grabbed the first electrolytic I could find with any semblance of tolerance indicated on the label. Here's what I found.

note the specs on the first 3 sections: basically +0,-25% taken at face value (or midpoint +/- 12.5%... who knows?!).
The last section, at face value, is spec'd at +0, -55%

 

[MattHooper]

While I have no way of knowing whether my 33+ year old NHT 3.3 speakers measure the same now as they did when they were new,
I can say without a doubt that they play amazingly clear at all volume levels.
Any degradation that may have occurred to any of the drivers or in the crossover circuitry is completely undetectable by me.
The same is true of my 30 year old Parasound HCA-3500 amplifier that drives them.

That’s my scenario as well.

I’ve wondered about the question of speaker deterioration since I own a few older loudspeakers. My Spendor s3/5s are about 25 years old. I also own a pair of Thiel 02 (a simple two-way large stand mounted speaker) that I adore, which are from the early 80s. My Thiel 2.7s are about 12 years old now. If there’s been any change in any of them my memory hasn’t been able to track it overtime and they all still sound superb to me.

 

[tineared]

That’s my scenario as well.

I’ve wondered about the question of speaker deterioration since I own a few older loudspeakers. My Spendor s3/5s are about 25 years old. I also own a pair of Thiel 02 (a simple two-way large stand mounted speaker) that I adore, which are from the early 80s. My Thiel 2.7s are about 12 years old now. If there’s been any change in any of them my memory hasn’t been able to track it overtime and they all still sound superb to me.

Years ago I considered buying spare parts for insurance, but I decided it was probably a fool's errand.
The good thing is I have a pair of 2.9s in the back bedroom that have identical drivers, other than the woofer.
So I don't worry about it, but it does encourage me to keep up with the latest and greatest just in case.

 

[MattHooper]

Years ago I considered buying spare parts for insurance, but I decided it was probably a fool's errand.
The good thing is I have a pair of 2.9s in the back bedroom that have identical drivers, other than the woofer.
So I don't worry about it, but it does encourage me to keep up with the latest and greatest just in case.

Looks like I’m a fool, because I actually did purchase spare parts for my Thiel 2.7s


They’re one of my all-time favourite loudspeakers, very few were produced because they came out about the time Thiel changed owners and speaker design. And my pair are in a hard to find finish so they’re pretty much a unicorn pair of speakers for me. Fortunately, after Thiel folded, one of Thiel’s main tech guys opened up the Coherent Source services company, where he could service and repair pretty much any of the classic Thiel speakers (he had all the spare inventory parts Thiel had kept over the years for each model).

I purchased an additional coax driver, woofer and passive radiator from him, just in case something went wrong - a driver damaged or whatever.

 

[tineared]

Looks like I’m a fool, because I actually did purchase spare parts for my Thiel 2.7s


They’re one of my all-time favourite loudspeakers, very few were produced because they came out about the time Thiel changed owners and speaker design. And my pair are in a hard to find finish so they’re pretty much a unicorn pair of speakers for me. Fortunately, after Thiel folded, one of Thiel’s main tech guys opened up the Coherent Source services company, where he could service and repair pretty much any of the classic Thiel speakers (he had all the spare inventory parts Thiel had kept over the years for each model).

I purchased an additional coax driver, woofer and passive radiator from him, just in case something went wrong - a driver damaged or whatever.

Not foolish, it's completely understandable. I have the advantage of having the 2.9s. I loved them so much, but they were lacking a little something in the low end so I upgraded to the 3.3s, but I couldn't bring myself to sell the 2.9s. Finding a speaker that does everything you want it to do is no easy task and when you do find them you cherish them.

 

[techsamurai]

I purchased an additional coax driver, woofer and passive radiator from him, just in case something went wrong - a driver damaged or whatever.

I think it's a smart move especially with those high-end and irreplaceable speakers.

 

[MattHooper]

I think it's a smart move especially with those high-end and irreplaceable speakers.

And also partly motivated, probably by my previous experience of having a pair of big expensive Thiel CS6 speakers in my home at one point, where my young so almost immediately put a dent in the woofer. That’s more of the kind of thing I imagine happening as I’m not one to blast speakers loud enough to blow drivers. The speakers are in the same room that I host a lot of people over for watching sports and movies and it’s easy to imagine somebody bumping into one of the drivers even with the grills on.

 

[mhardy6647]

I am -- in all seriousness (!) -- glad to see that this thread has attracted @MattHooper.
He's been kinda quiet lately; nice to see a coupla posts from him today!

On-ish topic... I do snicker a bit when folks speak of loudspeakers from the turn of the current century as old.


Two-thirds of the drivers in mine are roughly the same age as I am.