How much difference between replacement turntable cartridges? Alternative to Ortofon Black?

[Blake Klondike]

I know the objective differences between vinyl equip is not a huge topic of interest with many folks, but any thoughts on the audible differences between cartridges?

I upgraded an Ortofon OM5e to an Ortofon Blue on my Pro-Ject Debut III and the difference was totally legit to my ears. Sales clerks at several stores have told me that the Ortofon Black is the place to be for the next level of noticeable improvement.

I figure any time you are dealing with electro-mechanical design, there is always room for improvement, but I imagine vinyl is a prime snake oil zone, too.

Are there alternatives to the Black? It retails for about $900, which strikes me as absurd. I remember reading about what were essentially off-brand versions going for much less.

Also, the Debut III is only a $400 TT, so maybe there is a ceiling there?

I wouldn't trust advice on this subject from anyplace but ASR, so any thoughts/recommendations would be appreciated!

 

[SimpleTheater]

If you can use a moving coil, I can’t recommend the Denon DL-103R enough. I believe the cheaper Denon DL-103 (sans “r”) is very close to it in terms of sound quality. Don’t let the price trick you into thinking it’s not good enough. It’s the ultimate bargain in cartridges. Amazon has it for $449, but I picked it up off their site 3 months ago for only $249. I haven’t heard the Ortofon Black, but the Denon is significantly better than the Blue. You will hear the difference in bass immediately, later you will hear it’s better resolution.

A quick check of eBay shows a new 103R for $328 (free shipping)

 

[desertrat]

It is true that the Black is a significant improvement - no doubt. You would hear a good deal of that difference with your TT. But, since you've already bought and used the Blue, I'm guessing that you would lose quite a bit on that purchase, plus the cost of between $800 and $900 for the Black, putting you well over $1,000, or more. Other factor then come into play, such as your other system components, how much vinyl you listen to/how often, or what percent of vinyl vs digital, and so on.

 

[anmpr1]

Ortofon MM cartridges are quite expensive. For example, a replacement Stylus 40 (for their Super OM cartridges) is about $360.00 (USD). To compare, Audio Technica will sell you a cartridge using their Microline diamond (comparable to the Ortofon FG 70 stylus) for less than $200.00. I really don't see the value in an Ortofon cartridge. I'm not saying they are bad cartridges. I just don't get the pricing.

 

[desertrat]

Ditto anmpr1 on the AT moving magnet lineup! Don't know why I didn't suggest that.

 

[BDWoody]

Ditto anmpr1 on the AT moving magnet lineup! Don't know why I didn't suggest that.

It is cool how you can somewhat mix/match on the AT's. I have the vm540 with the microline, but am considering getting a shibata and/or SLC stylus for it... Before I spend gazillions on whatever is further down the food chain, why not completely explore the MM format. I will probably figure out a good MC as a first step in that direction, but want something that would be better than what I can get out of the vm540

 

[anmpr1]

It is cool how you can somewhat mix/match on the AT's.

My experience has been that the AT line is more HF oriented. The 440ML was to the point of being aggressive in the highs. My 740ML is less so, but has a similar (albeit milder) sonic tilt. Tracks great and has very firm LF presentation. As far as I know it is the 740 is a 540 with a metal body. If I was in the market for an AT I'd go with the 540.

AT have a new line--VM95 which run around two hundred dollars, featuring various replaceable line contact diamonds. How can you go wrong at that price? Certainly AT is the value proposition. Even their MC line is mostly cheaper than Ortofon. By a lot. I have one of their high output MC monophonic cartridges (AT-MONO3/LP). Highly recommended. And not expensive. Very balanced sound.

Another brand you read about, but that I have no first hand experience with, is Grado. Grado have been around for ever, and is certainly worth checking out. I've thought about buying one of their lower end Prestige line, like the Gold model. I can purchase a new Grado Gold for less than the price of Ortofon replacement styli. Grado's wood body line is in the stratosphere, price-wise, so that's a different thing altogether.

 

[digitalfrost]

Are there alternatives to the Black? It retails for about $900, which strikes me as absurd. I remember reading about what were essentially off-brand versions going for much less.

Does you preamp support MC? I bought an Audio-Technica AT33PTG/II. You can get it around 500$ and it's the last cartridge you'll ever need. I can do vinyl rips that I can hardly ABX against CD with this thing. I've experimented with stylus shapes before I would never go back to anything less than a microlinear or shibata, it makes a big difference. No matter the vendor.

 

[Ceburaska]

There is an extensive review with measurements of the Audio Technica VM540 here
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...udio-technica-vm540ml-phono-cartridge-review/
I use this as my main cartridge.

 

[BDWoody]

There is an extensive review with measurements of the Audio Technica VM540 here
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...udio-technica-vm540ml-phono-cartridge-review/
I use this as my main cartridge.

https://www.stereo.net.au/reviews/audio-technica-phono-cartridge-review

Seems to be well regarded. I'm thinking that SLC might be worth a shot, given the fairly universal praise. Not imminent...still narrowing down between that and a lower end MC.

 

[anmpr1]

There is an extensive review with measurements of the Audio Technica VM540 here
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...udio-technica-vm540ml-phono-cartridge-review/
I use this as my main cartridge.

The answer is we wanted to know if you could purchase a state of the art tracking cartridge at $250.00. The answer is yes, and you are now free from scanning eBay for 1980s cartridges.

As much as I respect David Rich (and I respect him a lot--he's one of the the best, that's for sure), I'm hesitant to wholly endorse his statement, above. What is interesting is that he has to use oscilloscope measurements to 'show' distortion differences. We understand that. It is how you should measure these things. However, using test records as a source, it is difficult if not impossible to hear normal audibility effects of mis-tracking, or even anti-skating compensation--things the scope will show.

For example, using the Shure test record I can't hear any differences on the skating tracks in my arm (Grace G-707-Ortofon Super OM 20) with or without anti-skating. I have to ask myself whether a) skating really makes an audible difference, or b) the arm itself has problems. The arm is in new condition, as far as it goes. FWIW, I've repeated this test using my Technics Sl-1200 with the KAB fluid damper, and the results are the same.

Next, it is my experience that all good cartridges track the highest level of the TTR 117, and that mistracking is not audible, even when the scope shows differences in distortion products, during the test.

The resonance test is the most revealing. Shure advises a resonance above 10Hz. I have found that most cartridges (in my three arms) spec out between 7-9 Hz. The damper of my M97xE does away with this problem completely. That said, I ever experienced an 'audible' artifact on this test (even when I could visibly see the arm/cartridge combo moving) in just a few instances. Most cartridges deal with it well, from an audible standpoint. In any case, the older Shure damped brush design does away with this problem. All 'modern' cartridges should have this 'old' device.

Certainly we want the 'best' measurements, but how does it translate to audibility? Unlike well designed DACs or amplifiers, where measurements differ but audibility cannot be reliably distinguished, cartridges remain something quite subjective. I think once you get past FR, things go south in attempting to pinpoint audibility. Dr. Rich's review of the AT ML-440 shows a horrible HF rise, and that is audible. I have one, and can readily hear the result. The 740ML rise is less, and sounds better in that regard (interesting how the 440ML had some of the lowest distortion products, and worst sound). However, one of the best cartridges I own is a NOS Pickering XSV-1200e, moving iron, from the mid to late '70s. I have no idea how it would 'measure', but it sounds great. So, his idea that one might be 'free' from wanting to purchase an old cartridge is not exactly a certain thing.

 

[pozz]

Posting in here just so I remember where to look when I need a new cartridge.

 

[MusicNBeer]

AT VM 540 or 740 ML are awesome cartridges. I actually replaced a 2M Black with the VM740ML for my Technics 1200gr.

The improvement was immediately apparent. Way better tracking, less surface noise, and less distortion. The ML stylus is as good as it gets technically.

The only caveat with these cartridges is your phono preamp must have an input capacitance of 100uF or less. You also need a super low capacitance interconnect like 1m or less of BJC LC1. Higher capacitance causes the high frequency hump in the frequency response which so many people complain about.