How much did ADCs in the 80s affect the sound quality of CDs?

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Name one.

His name would be Aten. At least if you were Egyptian.

 

[Mart68]

What are you objecting to? That in the early days that many CD's were just "badly wrong"?

Yes. In fact I'd argue the opposite is true. Early CDs are amongst the best as they took care to showcase the advantages of the new format - no added noise, high dynamic range.

If you can name some of these releases I can check them out and if you're correct I will learn something.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Yes. In fact I'd argue the opposite is true. Early CDs are amongst the best as they took care to showcase the advantages of the new format - no added noise, high dynamic range.

If you can name some of these releases I can check them out and if you're correct I will learn something.

Sure. Download the archives of mid 1980s Rec.Audio

 

[Blumlein 88]

With respect to RIAA pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, the analog circuit uncertainty of gain can be significantly larger than the generally accepted audible limit.
I would wager that if you were able to obtain RTR masters, your sampling population is skewed towards those production labels who actually cared about sound quality.
I remember many CD's which sucked compared to their cassette releases!

We used pre-recorded Reel to reels. So not some special edition master. Just the tape version available to the public. I knew some collectors who had a fair sized collection. Mainstream things like rock and roll, folk music, Jazz, etc.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Sure. Download the archives of mid 1980s Rec.Audio

That is completely unhelpful. This myth has been around for nearly as long as CD, and I don't believe it. While it may have happened, I think it was only a handful of things it could have happened to and not a general situation common at all with the first decade of CD releases.

 

[Mart68]

Sure. Download the archives of mid 1980s Rec.Audio

So you can't name a single one?

 

[Hayabusa]

In de 80's I ripped a few early CD's and did some histogram analysis on it. There were lots of 'missing' codes what means that the ADC was clearly not flawless at that time

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

That is completely unhelpful. This myth has been around for nearly as long as CD, and I don't believe it. While it may have happened, I think it was only a handful of things it would have happened to and not a general situation common at all with the first decade of CD releases.

Hey, I'm semi retired now. If you were not alive then, why can I say? Believe me, don't believe me. Take it or leave it. 45 years ago I learned to not immediately rush out to buy the CD re-release of an album/song I already owned.
However, at least in the 'audio community' I grew up with, virtually no one had access to original real to real tapes, at least for audio recordings. I can say conclusively that my entire experience of real to real tapes were confined to mainframe and micro-computers. I first 'logged on" from home in 1978 using an Exidy Sorcerer.
There is no scientific dispute here.
Records (LPs), 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs all have obvious objective and subjective differences.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

In de 80's I ripped a few early CD's and did some histogram analysis on it. There were lots of 'missing' codes what means that the ADC was clearly not flawless at that time

Now I am curious on what system did you rip them? I think mine was circa '93 on a NeXTSTEP.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey, I'm semi retired now. If you were not alive then, why can I say? Believe me, don't believe me. Take it or leave it. 45 years ago I learned to not immediately rush out to buy the CD re-release of an album/song I already owned.
However, at least in the 'audio community' I grew up with, virtually no one had access to original real to real tapes, at least for audio recordings. I can say conclusively that my entire experience of real to real tapes were confined to mainframe and micro-computers. I first 'logged on" from home in 1978 using an Exidy Sorcerer.
There is no scientific dispute here.
Records (LPs), 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs all have obvious objective and subjective differences.

Not letting you off that easy. I was alive then. Was an adult when CD was introduced. I don't doubt mastering was done on pre-recorded RTR, and also CD. But the LP was a very different animal, and using a master for LP straight to CD would have been very obvious. Yes all media have differences, but this myth that master tapes prepped for LP were just copied digitally does not appear to be true. CD did sound different than LP (usually for the better). LP no matter its rep was not a reference quality medium.

Referencing an earlier comment about CD and cassette tape, we are supposed to believe they didn't use an LP master for cassette, but they did for CD at a time when they were doing all three mediums? Does not begin to add up.

 

[HaveMeterWillTravel]

Not letting you off that easy. I was alive then. Was an adult when CD was introduced. I don't doubt mastering was done on pre-recorded RTR, and also CD. But the LP was a very different animal, and using a master for LP straight to CD would have been very obvious. Yes all media have differences, but this myth that master tapes prepped for LP were just copied digitally does not appear to be true. CD did sound different than LP (usually for the better). LP no matter its rep was not a reference quality medium.

Referencing an earlier comment about CD and cassette tape, we are supposed to believe they didn't use an LP master for cassette, but they did for CD at a time when they were doing all three mediums? Does not begin to add up.

Hey, if you are so deaf to be unable to hear the differences between LPs, cassettes, and CDs, what can I say.
I think I found one of the Rec.Audio toxic residents who claimed they had golden ears.
Bound to happen.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Hey, if you are so deaf to be unable to hear the differences between LPs, cassettes, and CDs, what can I say.
I think I found one of the Rec.Audio toxic residents who claimed they had golden ears.
Bound to happen.

So now you resort to this. Wow. Where did I say I didn't hear differences between those? Nowhere. In fact I said exactly that friends and I heard differences.

OTOH, quoting one of your posts, "I remember many CD's which sucked compared to their cassette releases!". I don't believe that one either. Repeating myself I know, but why would they use an inferior master for CD, but get it right with cassette?

 

[Hayabusa]

Now I am curious on what system did you rip them? I think mine was circa '93 on a NeXTSTEP.

I think it was the cd player from the SGI workstation

 

[j_j]

In de 80's I ripped a few early CD's and did some histogram analysis on it. There were lots of 'missing' codes what means that the ADC was clearly not flawless at that time

Some do to this day, and it does not matter where they will read. The digital read should be 100% accurate. Some of the stuff I've found much more recently (recently enough we wrote a program to test a variety of things, including missing codes, intersample overs, excessive clipping, etc has been flat-out bad.

Remember that missing codes can also come about by failure to dither after multiplication of a PCM signal by a gain adjustment. Dithering is not only a good idea when doing final rendering to the delivered bit depth.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Hey, I'm semi retired now. If you were not alive then, why can I say? Believe me, don't believe me. Take it or leave it. 45 years ago I learned to not immediately rush out to buy the CD re-release of an album/song I already owned.
However, at least in the 'audio community' I grew up with, virtually no one had access to original real to real tapes, at least for audio recordings. I can say conclusively that my entire experience of real to real tapes were confined to mainframe and micro-computers. I first 'logged on" from home in 1978 using an Exidy Sorcerer.
There is no scientific dispute here.
Records (LPs), 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs all have obvious objective and subjective differences.

Wow, semi-retired and your posts and location look like they were done by a 16 year old. Impressive!

 

[Jimbob54]

Hey, if you are so deaf to be unable to hear the differences between LPs, cassettes, and CDs, what can I say.
I think I found one of the Rec.Audio toxic residents who claimed they had golden ears.
Bound to happen.

Thats not how we talk to each other here. At least, not if you wish to stay around.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Remember that missing codes can also come about by failure to dither after multiplication of a PCM signal by a gain adjustment. Dithering is not only a good idea when doing final rendering to the delivered bit depth.

I'm not keen on analogies, but this can be easily seen when stretching the dynamic range of an 8-bit photograph (e.g. moving black and white points) the histogram then shows missing colours as gaps.

 

[VientoB]

With respect to RIAA pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, the analog circuit uncertainty of gain can be significantly larger than the generally accepted audible limit.
I would wager that if you were able to obtain RTR masters, your sampling population is skewed towards those production labels who actually cared about sound quality.
I remember many CD's which sucked compared to their cassette releases!

Which ones?

 

[Beave]

Hey, I'm semi retired now. If you were not alive then, why can I say? Believe me, don't believe me. Take it or leave it. 45 years ago I learned to not immediately rush out to buy the CD re-release of an album/song I already owned.
However, at least in the 'audio community' I grew up with, virtually no one had access to original real to real tapes, at least for audio recordings. I can say conclusively that my entire experience of real to real tapes were confined to mainframe and micro-computers. I first 'logged on" from home in 1978 using an Exidy Sorcerer.
There is no scientific dispute here.
Records (LPs), 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs all have obvious objective and subjective differences.

reel to reel, not real to real.

 

[BDWoody]

Believe me, don't believe me. Take it or leave it.

With no evidence to support your claims, I think most here will choose to leave it.

No need to get churlish.