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How much did ADCs in the 80s affect the sound quality of CDs?

I know it is the received wisdom around here, but I can't say I've ever heard a remaster from the last couple of decades that didn't sound better than an earlier CD release or the original vinyl – if I have had the opportunity to compare either, which of course is not always the case. Perhaps the music I listen too hasn't been prone to these issues (or I just have cloth ears) but I feel this 'problem' is massively exaggerated ...
It might be helpful to know what kind of music you listen to. I haven't heard issues with acoustic music - Jazz, Folk, Classical. This is just a guess, but I think brickwalling is more of a problem with brand new releases of pop music than with remasters of older recordings. Mild compression of music with a lot of dynamics will still show up as something like brickwalling as regards measurements. The music I generally listen to, Classical music focusing on a lot of orchestral music, doesn't seem to have any issues with compression. In fact, some could use a touch of compression in order to be more listenable in a domestic environment.
 
The CBS masterworks digital? That's a beautiful disc.
Yes, CBS Masterworks MK 39072.

Another relatively early production that has great sound is the set of Corelli's Concerti Grossi op. 6 on Harmonia Mundi USA. Philharmonia Baroque directed by Nicholas McGegan. I'm not sure if the original recordings are analog or digital. Harmonia Mundi hung on to analog recording longer than most other labels recording classical music. There were two separate issues of Opus 6, 1 through 6 recorded at Ralston Hall in Belmont California in 1989, 7 through 12 at Skywalker Sound, Nicasio California, 1990. The sound quality in both sets is remarkably similar. Skywalker Sound was generally preferred for classical productions because of it's isolation from outside noises - they even had an agreement with the Air Force and the FAA so that there were no overhead flights. I hear some of the same kinds of goodness in the Corelli as in the recording of Mahler's 4th - a see-through quality to the textures, definition of individual instrumental elements, great hall capture. I recall that the Corelli recordings were first issued as LPs. I remember that Harmonia Mundi USA was making a name for itself by virtue of sticking to analog productions when other record labels were making digital recordings Naturally the audiophile press ate it up. But the CDs appeared within a couple of years. By 2001 the set was re-issued on Harmonia Mundi's "Classical Express" budget series.
 
I'm a little surprised that people are saying master tapes have degraded. I think we're have been the odd batch of dodgy master tape (one of Megadeth's albums suffered from this) but do they really get noticeably worse? Which remasters are you guys thinking of here?
 
I'm a little surprised that people are saying master tapes have degraded. I think we're have been the odd batch of dodgy master tape (one of Megadeth's albums suffered from this) but do they really get noticeably worse? Which remasters are you guys thinking of here?
Analog tapes suffer from oxide falling off the backing, it's a well-known problem particularly with Ampex 456:

 
It might be helpful to know what kind of music you listen to.

Pretty much anything and everything, but perhaps not so much mainstream 'top 40' material at least from the last couple of decades or three.

This is just a guess, but I think brickwalling is more of a problem with brand new releases of pop music than with remasters of older recordings

Yes, the only releases I've consciously experienced as too hot/compressed are a few original albums from the last decade or so – mostly loud rock or similar. Not remasters or older stuff.
 
CDs made from such a Disk Cutting Master would sound somewhat odd played on a neutral flat system like CD. However, very few CDs were done like that, and were fairly promptly replaced, although it gave the anti-CD lobby a stick to bash digital with.
I have heard this story both ways. The "other story line" is that back in the day the original master tapes were not considered as important as the LP cutting masters (which included enhancements from the mastering engineer, not just the changes to cut to vinyl which tend to be exaggerated in their audible effects) so the LP cutting masters were what was taken care of and the original master often lost. According to "this story line" most early CD's of popular historical titles were cut from the LP masters. This could in theory be great as you get the mastering engineer's original enhancements, many of which they did not document and which would not be available if the CD's were made from the master tapes.

So what is the truth? I don't know for sure and not sure if anyone really does but based on what I have observed owning the original LP's and original CD's and later remasters of several hundred older popular music titles I lean toward the "most early CD's used LP cutting masters" story.
 
Here you go folks :>) Damned surprised it hasn't come up.
Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop 1979 digital!
Now, in spite of it being one of my flat out long time favorites.. I learned something here. Recorded all digital.. the release was on vinyl. The CD not until 1990.
Sound? 'Clean, clear and beautiful.
I was about to post this very same thing.

I bought the Ry Cooder album on vinyl back in 1979, and it transformed my listening experience even on my modest turntable.

Another album worthy of mention is Tusk by Fleetwood Mac, another early digital recording - which again transformed my listening experience.
 
My personal subjective experience is that better DACs now do make old CDs that were well mastered sound even better today. That being said, bad recordings and bad masters can't be fixed by a better DAC, but some creative EQ often helps. I'm both a vinyl and a CD guy, and I don't hesitate to buy old CDs that appear to be in good shape, and have usually been quite happy as long as they play OK.
 
Analog tapes suffer from oxide falling off the backing, it's a well-known problem particularly with Ampex 456:

+1

Which will creates overtime (some pro's like Nichols say within hours) differences between an digital recording from an analog master compared with the same analog master.
 
Some interesting experiences regarding production of The Night Fly from Donald Fagan digital an analog mixups difference in quality an how it is produced by Roger Nichols early 80ties. An a Spoiler alert at the end. Source: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/the-best-version-of/the-best-version-of-donald-fagen’s-the-nightfly-r1006/

The first is the analog tape-sourced version of The Nightfly, referenced by High Fidelity’s Sutherland above, that was pulled from stores. Nichols recounted the saga in 2001 web post:

When we mixed Nightfly in the summer of 1982 there was no such thing as CD. We recorded on the 3M digital 32-track and mixed to the 3M 4-track. We mastered at Bob Ludwig’s. The record company asked for a 30ips 1/2 inch analog copy to use for advance cassettes for promotion guys.

I also printed the mixes to a Sony PCM-F1. I had the first one in the US in 1982. I gave a copy of it to Stevie Wonder.

When CDs came out in 1984, Warner Bros pressed CDs of Nightfly. So far nothing I had done was out on CD. Stevie called me up and said that he just got a copy of the Nightfly CD and it didn’t sound as good as the F1 tape. I thought “%$(&*%$# CDs are not any good, I’m a dead man!”

I went to Warner Bros and got a copy of the CD. I want home and listened. The CD sounded like it had a blanket over the vocals and horns and... well everything. I called Bob Ludwig and asked what tape he sent to Warner Bros for the CD mastering. He said “What tape? Warner Bros never ordered anything for CD production.” Uh- Oh.

Upon further investigation I found out that Warner Bros had someone make a copy of the 30ips 1/2 inch tape and sent it to the CD plant instead of ordering a digital tape from the digital original.

No wonder the vinyl sounded better. The vinyl was made from the digital original, but the CDs were made from a second-generation analog copy. It happened to a lot of artists including Blondie, Diana Ross, Billy Joel, and many others.

Bob Ludwig made a digital master and sent it to the CD plant. The CD was pressed, and the old CDs were supposed to be destroyed. Instead Warner Bros sent them to Europe to sell thinking we would not find out. Somehow they also leaked into the chain in the US and were consumed by consumers….

The bad CD was made from 30ips analog tape and the good one was made from a digital 1610 master. All of the pressings after the first one are good.

The analog tape-sourced CD of The Nightfly is extremely hard to find. They can be spotted by checking out the CD’s matrix number. If it ends in “021 02,” it was made from the analog tape.


Spoiler alert:
Ok for the die-hard Fagan Night Fly fan who really would get this Iconic Original 1610 Digital Master it can be found on the DVD-A EDITION (2002) 2.0, 48kHz/24-bit
Marketed by Rhino but with glass manufacturing handled by Warner’s facility in Germany [8122781289], this plays only on DVD players (DVD-Audio 5.1 and 2.0, 48kHz/24-bit; Dolby Digital 5.1 and 2.0, DTS 5.1),


Tip: If i can recall extraction could be done in Windows with Audacity.
An yes it sounds quite slic.:cool:
 
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Here you go folks :>) Damned surprised it hasn't come up.
Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop 1979 digital!
Now, in spite of it being one of my flat out long time favorites.. I learned something here. Recorded all digital.. the release was on vinyl. The CD not until 1990.
Sound? 'Clean, clear and beautiful. In fact, if you haven't heard it, maybe you've heard this one..
Van Morrison Saint Dominic's Preview 1972 & 1997
Both 'beautiful, clear and clean.
There :)

Is not Ry Cooders Jazz from. 1978 also an early digital recording ?
 
Remixing and remastering, as someone already mentioned, are decidedly two different things. Compare the original Japanese pressing of Hot For Teacher from the Van Halen disc, 1984 (the "Target" disc) with the 2000 HDCD "remaster":

VHH4TComp.png


They pumped up the jam on the HDCD version and all of the instrument placement—especially EVH's guitar—are all different on the HDCD version. Some of it is so bad that it's unrecognizable if you knew the original.
 
There should be a law against it. It's destruction of culture, like book burning.

Okay if the original was intended to be compressed to the max, that's an 'artistic decision'; but not taking good recordings and mangling them,
 
Here you go folks :>) Damned surprised it hasn't come up.
Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop 1979 digital!
Now, in spite of it being one of my flat out long time favorites.. I learned something here. Recorded all digital.. the release was on vinyl. The CD not until 1990.
Sound? 'Clean, clear and beautiful. In fact, if you haven't heard it, maybe you've heard this one..
Van Morrison Saint Dominic's Preview 1972 & 1997
Both 'beautiful, clear and clean.
There :)
What was the difference between the vinyl an all digital cd release.
 
How are we going to organise this bet? Because I want your real money.
I know, 2dB overall level diff sets the bar kinda low.
Sadly not. I was too young, just a music consumer back then. I've never seen a Soundstream system in the flesh. At $160,000USD back in the day, I don't think many made it to Australia. Plenty of Sony units and some Mitsubishis. I was offered a free X-80 in Sydney several years back, but decided driving 1800km to pick up what was essentially a giant historical paperweight was foolish.

Thomas Stockham died January 6th 2004. He was president of the AES in 82/83?


I recently picked up a small haul of early Michael Murray Telarcs to go with the others I have squirrelled away. I think between my father and I, we have pretty much all the Telarcs of that era. Amazing recordings. Can't resist another copy of THE 1812 as you can never have too many just in case...

View attachment 392375

I have the Telarc with Michael Murray playing the Bach Toccata & Fugue in Dm. Earthshaking.
 
I'm a little surprised that people are saying master tapes have degraded. I think we're have been the odd batch of dodgy master tape (one of Megadeth's albums suffered from this) but do they really get noticeably worse? Which remasters are you guys thinking of here?

check out this timely article

 
I really need to pick up the Telarcs, though they are almost impossible to find now. I have many records but they are probably in bad shape after all these years, many moves, storage, etc. I have picked up a few of the Sheffield CDs and they are good too. Lincoln telling the story of meeting Amanda McBroom is hilarious.... Lincoln died last year, so many of the giants I knew are gone, sad.
There's always some for sale on Discogs...but not as many as one would like.

Not too expensive either.
 
Indeed. Early CDs at least didn't 'brick-wall' up to 0dBFS, as current CDs do. They left some headroom, up to 10dB in some cases. Have a look at the original Dire Straits CDs for how a mass market CD should be made.

What did happen in a very few cases, is that due to mislabelling, ignorance or sloppy management, a few CDs were made from a Disk Cutting Master, which had all the EQ, limiting and levelling necessary for cutting an LP. These were normally sent out from the original record company to their pressing plants round the world so that, in theory at least, an LP cut in, say, Australia, was the same as one cut in, say, the UK. This avoided sending out very fragile lacquers or metalwork.

CDs made from such a Disk Cutting Master would sound somewhat odd played on a neutral flat system like CD. However, very few CDs were done like that, and were fairly promptly replaced, although it gave the anti-CD lobby a stick to bash digital with.

Well that's what's being debated...whether it indeed only happened in a very few cases.

Testimony from industry flacks, and the occasional ME, during the first wave of 'remastering' back then, would have us believe otherwise....

Yes, one might expect that such releases would show objective evidence of typical LP production EQ moves. That, AFAIK, has never been demonstrated.
 
I'm a little surprised that people are saying master tapes have degraded. I think we're have been the odd batch of dodgy master tape (one of Megadeth's albums suffered from this) but do they really get noticeably worse? Which remasters are you guys thinking of here?

Some of the Bob Dylan two track masters were supposedly played to the point of unusability for digital release.

Another myth, maybe.
 
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