How much did ADCs in the 80s affect the sound quality of CDs?

[Hayabusa]

A lot of people like to purchase older CDs of their favourite albums since they tend to have better dynamic range and are perceived to sound better than newer masterings. But are there distortions that the older ADCs used to create the digital masterings back in the 1980s that would be (1) measurable and (2) audible?

In 86 I ripped a few early CD's and did some statistics on it.
One conclusion was that there are lots of missing codes.
The histogram also suggested quite some non-linearity.
So it seems the CDs were a one to one copy of the output of a not so good ADC.

 

[Robin L]

I was using an ADC back in 1988, not the best (Sony 501 es, had to use it with a Betamax video recorder) and one that possibly altered the sound of whatever was going into it. But it made less impact on the sound quality of a recording than the 15 ips half-track recorder (Tascam 32) I was also using at the time. I'm listening to a lot of early/mid 1980s DDD recordings of classical music these days. These are the types of recordings being abandoned by those who now use streaming. I frequently find these CDs either very cheap or free. A really good example is the 1984 recording of Mahler's 4th Symphony, Lorin Maazel directing the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Kathleen Battle soprano. It's got anything one can ask for from a two-channel recording of densely orchestrated classical (Late Romantic, to be precise) music. The engineering team used a Sony PCM 3324 recorder, not a first-generation machine, but a later model capable of multi-track recording. I'd say, from all the early digital recordings I've heard recently, that the microphones used, the performance venues and the performers themselves had most of the impact on the sound of early digital productions. I suspect that re-mastering decisions had a much greater impact on analog to digital transfers than the digital gear used. Certainly, the use of a tape intended for cutting an LP or a dupe used instead of a master could have an obvious impact on sound quality in a way that the essentially transparent digital recording gear would not.

 

[restorer-john]

I cannot speak for the 50 kHz SoundStream tech

The few Soundstream early CDs I have are spectacular. But anything made on Soundstream or the Mitsubishi X-80 was going to good. I think the artists cared massively, their labels did too and they spent the time and money to produce SOTA recordings.

We had bands like Icehouse who flew to Japan to do entire albums on the X-800 and X-80. Iva Davies was super into the latest electronic technology in music and audio. I remember pre-ordering Measure For Measure and waiting for ages for it to come via a special import from Japan. The sound was incredible compared to the previous Icehouse albums.

Interview with Iva Davies of Icehouse

Interview with Iva Davies of Icehouse

www.rediscoverthe80s.com

MITSUBISHI ProDigi Digital Reel-to-Reel Recorders - Positive Feedback

MITSUBISHI ProDigi Digital Reel-to-Reel Recorders - From X-80 to X-880, Part 2

positive-feedback.com

 

[DonH56]

The few Soundstream early CDs I have are spectacular. But anything made on Soundstream or the Mitsubishi X-80 was going to good. I think the artists cared massively, their labels did too and they spent the time and money to produce SOTA recordings.

We had bands like Icehouse who flew to Japan to do entire albums on the X-800 and X-80. Iva Davies was super into the latest electronic technology in music and audio. I remember pre-ordering Measure For Measure and waiting for ages for it to come via a special import from Japan. The sound was incredible compared to the previous Icehouse albums.

View attachment 392374

Interview with Iva Davies of Icehouse

Interview with Iva Davies of Icehouse

www.rediscoverthe80s.com

MITSUBISHI ProDigi Digital Reel-to-Reel Recorders - Positive Feedback

MITSUBISHI ProDigi Digital Reel-to-Reel Recorders - From X-80 to X-880, Part 2

positive-feedback.com

John, just curious if you know how the Soundstream compared to the Sony technically? My vague recollection is that the earliest Sony's had some pretty big issues, but that they caught up quickly, while Soundstream sort of plateaued (and of course the company was struggling shortly thereafter)? I saw the Soundstream and Sony recorders, not the Mitsubishi that I can recall. I knew Lincoln Mayorga, briefly, but as a musician not producer etc.

 

[GXAlan]

The few Soundstream early CDs I have are spectacular. But anything made on Soundstream or the Mitsubishi X-80 was going to good. I think the artists cared massively, their labels did too and they spent the time and money to produce SOTA recordings.

A bunch of Telarc DDD classics were re-released on SACD which had the full 50 kHz sources used. These have appreciated in value on eBay since you don’t get high res Telarc content on streaming.

 

[restorer-john]

John, just curious if you know how the Soundstream compared to the Sony technically?

Sadly not. I was too young, just a music consumer back then. I've never seen a Soundstream system in the flesh. At $160,000USD back in the day, I don't think many made it to Australia. Plenty of Sony units and some Mitsubishis. I was offered a free X-80 in Sydney several years back, but decided driving 1800km to pick up what was essentially a giant historical paperweight was foolish.

Thomas Stockham died January 6th 2004. He was president of the AES in 82/83?

Thomas G. Stockham, Jr.

I recently picked up a small haul of early Michael Murray Telarcs to go with the others I have squirrelled away. I think between my father and I, we have pretty much all the Telarcs of that era. Amazing recordings. Can't resist another copy of THE 1812 as you can never have too many just in case...

 

[DonH56]

Sadly not. I was too young, just a music consumer back then. I've never seen a Soundstream system in the flesh. At $160,000USD back in the day, I don't think many made it to Australia. Plenty of Sony units and some Mitsubishis. I was offered a free X-80 in Sydney several years back, but decided driving 1800km to pick up what was essentially a giant historical paperweight was foolish.

Thomas Stockham died January 6th 2004. He was president of the AES in 82/83?

Thomas G. Stockham, Jr.

I recently picked up a small haul of early Michael Murray Telarcs to go with the others I have squirrelled away. I think between my father and I, we have pretty much all the Telarcs of that era. Amazing recordings. Can't resist another copy of THE 1812 as you can never have too many just in case...

View attachment 392375

I really need to pick up the Telarcs, though they are almost impossible to find now. I have many records but they are probably in bad shape after all these years, many moves, storage, etc. I have picked up a few of the Sheffield CDs and they are good too. Lincoln telling the story of meeting Amanda McBroom is hilarious.... Lincoln died last year, so many of the giants I knew are gone, sad.

 

[restorer-john]

A bunch of Telarc DDD classics were re-released on SACD which had the full 50 kHz sources used.

The SRC converter they used was at the time a Studer SFC-16 which was I believe the first sample rate converter for audio ever.

What I like about this SRC, is Studer already knew about intersample overs long before Benchmark "discovered" them. LOL.

 

[restorer-john]

so many of the giants I knew are gone, sad.

I wish people wrote more actual books about these giants of audio, technology, semiconductors etc. As so many have died all of a sudden it seems, their legacy is all too fleeting on the internet. Decades of work gets a page or two on a website and then next time you come back, it's all gone.

The vast resources at www.worldradiohistory.com means we are back to reading about the breakthroughs in the industry magazines published at the time. All there and all for free. I love that site.

 

[restorer-john]

1984 recording of Mahler's 4th Symphony, Lorin Maazel directing the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Kathleen Battle

The CBS masterworks digital? That's a beautiful disc.

 

[Mart68]

I have a Sony ADC from 1989, as far as I can tell it's transparent.

Also have a Kenwood from early 1990s but never used it, still in the box.

What people think they can hear never fails to amaze me. As for the 'Early CDs sound bad because the engineers didn't know how to make digital transfers' thing - It's just risible.

 

[mixsit]

Here you go folks :>) Damned surprised it hasn't come up.
Ry Cooder Bop Till You Drop 1979 digital!
Now, in spite of it being one of my flat out long time favorites.. I learned something here. Recorded all digital.. the release was on vinyl. The CD not until 1990.
Sound? 'Clean, clear and beautiful. In fact, if you haven't heard it, maybe you've heard this one..
Van Morrison Saint Dominic's Preview 1972 & 1997
Both 'beautiful, clear and clean.
There

 

[sergeauckland]

I have a Sony ADC from 1989, as far as I can tell it's transparent.

Also have a Kenwood from early 1990s but never used it, still in the box.

What people think they can hear never fails to amaze me. As for the 'Early CDs sound bad because the engineers didn't know how to make digital transfers' thing - It's just risible.

Indeed. Early CDs at least didn't 'brick-wall' up to 0dBFS, as current CDs do. They left some headroom, up to 10dB in some cases. Have a look at the original Dire Straits CDs for how a mass market CD should be made.

What did happen in a very few cases, is that due to mislabelling, ignorance or sloppy management, a few CDs were made from a Disk Cutting Master, which had all the EQ, limiting and levelling necessary for cutting an LP. These were normally sent out from the original record company to their pressing plants round the world so that, in theory at least, an LP cut in, say, Australia, was the same as one cut in, say, the UK. This avoided sending out very fragile lacquers or metalwork.

CDs made from such a Disk Cutting Master would sound somewhat odd played on a neutral flat system like CD. However, very few CDs were done like that, and were fairly promptly replaced, although it gave the anti-CD lobby a stick to bash digital with.

S.

 

[Mart68]

Indeed. Early CDs at least didn't 'brick-wall' up to 0dBFS, as current CDs do. They left some headroom, up to 10dB in some cases. Have a look at the original Dire Straits CDs for how a mass market CD should be made.

What did happen in a very few cases, is that due to mislabelling, ignorance or sloppy management, a few CDs were made from a Disk Cutting Master, which had all the EQ, limiting and levelling necessary for cutting an LP. These were normally sent out from the original record company to their pressing plants round the world so that, in theory at least, an LP cut in, say, Australia, was the same as one cut in, say, the UK. This avoided sending out very fragile lacquers or metalwork.

CDs made from such a Disk Cutting Master would sound somewhat odd played on a neutral flat system like CD. However, very few CDs were done like that, and were fairly promptly replaced, although it gave the anti-CD lobby a stick to bash digital with.

S.

As with any other 'Bad recording' diatribe it's a straw to clutch at. The alternative being to accept their playback system is rubbish and needs sorting.

 

[Ageve]

The SRC converter they used was at the time a Studer SFC-16 which was I believe the first sample rate converter for audio ever.

Yes, they used it on Straussfest as well. I wouldn't be surprised if it was audibly transparent, but it would be interesting to see measurements.

I have attached a short sample. It's a very quiet passage, amplified by 30 dB (without clipping). This recording is now 40 years old.

This is what the original waveform looks like:

 

[DonH56]

I have a Sony ADC from 1989, as far as I can tell it's transparent.

Also have a Kenwood from early 1990s but never used it, still in the box.

What people think they can hear never fails to amaze me. As for the 'Early CDs sound bad because the engineers didn't know how to make digital transfers' thing - It's just risible.

It was more about the digital recording, mixing, and mastering process that engineers had to accommodate and a period of adaption was required. My source is my own studio work and sound engineers at places like Columbia (where I was mentored) and A&M ca. 1979~1984. Some of those early CDs are awesome, some less so, but there was a bit of learning going from analog tape to digital recording. Maybe just among those with whom I worked...

The later loudness wars are where I think sonics were all too often lost in the noise, err, loudness.

 

[Mart68]

It was more about the digital recording, mixing, and mastering process that engineers had to accommodate and a period of adaption was required. My source is my own studio work and sound engineers at places like Columbia (where I was mentored) and A&M ca. 1979~1984. Some of those early CDs are awesome, some less so, but there was a bit of learning going from analog tape to digital recording. Maybe just among those with whom I worked...

That I'm sure was the case, but I was only talking about the process of putting out existing analogue recordings on CD.

Making recordings I agree is a lot more complex, especially with unfamiliar tech. We're all aware of the whole 'Katy Lied' DBX debacle.

 

[pma]

Speaking about early digital ADC recordings, we need to go back to the seventies, not to the eighties.

https://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf

https://sts.kahaku.go.jp/english/material/2015pdf/no198.pdf

https://sts.kahaku.go.jp/diversity/document/system/pdf/083_e.pdf

 

[Tell]

Speaking about early digital ADC recordings, we need to go back to the seventies, not to the eighties.

https://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/fine_dawn-of-digital.pdf

https://sts.kahaku.go.jp/english/material/2015pdf/no198.pdf

https://sts.kahaku.go.jp/diversity/document/system/pdf/083_e.pdf

Yup, I did link that one a few pages back already, 13bit at 32kHz and it still sounds great!

Have you ever heard the first digital music recording? If I remember correctly this was recorded back in 1971 but didn't get released until a few years later for some reason. Can you guess the bitrate? Have a listen for a few minutes and then press the spoiler

Spoiler

It was recorded at 13bit and 32khz. Might not be perfect, but I still think it sounds damn fine! And just imagine how much digital audio has been improved since then ^^

 

[bluefuzz]

They are usually a sh#tshow as the analogue master tapes had deteriorated, every man and his dog had a go at improving the sound and essentially wrecking it. The sad thing is, these abominations were released and you'll spot them everywhere.

I know it is the received wisdom around here, but I can't say I've ever heard a remaster from the last couple of decades that didn't sound better than an earlier CD release or the original vinyl – if I have had the opportunity to compare either, which of course is not always the case. Perhaps the music I listen too hasn't been prone to these issues (or I just have cloth ears) but I feel this 'problem' is massively exaggerated ...