• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

How Much Current Capacity do we Need from our Amplifiers?

NTK

Major Contributor
Technical Expert
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
4,363
Likes
10,422
Location
US East
You can find numerous posts on this and other audio fora touting the importance of high current output capacities of amplifiers. For example, in this post the poster wrote about the alleged ability of the NAD 2200 to output 60 A peaks. If you have a speaker with 2 Ω impedance, 60 A current means I²×R = 60²×2 = 7200 W! And the required voltage to drive 60 A across a 2 Ω load would be 120 V! Few speakers have 2 Ω or lower impedance, and per Ohm's law, the "peak power" and voltage that go along with the 60 A current increase proportionally with impedance. Therefore clearly these 60 A peak output current claims (if these claims were actually made) cannot have any real world relevance and are enitrely bogus. At best these claims of 60 A peak current are for short circuit output currents, or into loads that are almost shorts, conditions that are far from (I hope) anything close to real life. Competently designed loudspeakers aren't shorts. (OK, car subwoofers can get close but I am not talking about them. They are designed to work with 12 VDC electronics.)

But the question of how much current a normal speaker will draw remains and is a valid one, especially when the signal is not a simple sine wave. Let's see if we can answer that.

People have developed reasonably faithful loudspeaker electrical models, at least when they are operating in their (mostly) linear operating ranges which ideally we don't want to exceed. It should be straight forward to simulate the current draw for any arbitrary signal with these electrical models.

There are almost infinite variations of speakers and audio signals, and nobody will have the time to analyze them all. In this exercise I will use the combination of the Stereophile simulated speaker load and the AES75 music noise (aka M-noise). M-noise is supposed to be a good surrogate of the high dynamic range audio typically encountered in live sound situations.

The electrical model of the Stereophile simulated speaker load is shown here.
stereophile_simulated_load_circuit.png

scan58.jpg


The simulated impedance of this circuit matches the Stereophile measurements of their actual implementation quite well.
plot1_impedance_magnitude.png


As a second verification test of this circuit I simulated the current draw in response to a sine sweep (chirp). The amplitude envelop of the current draw closely followed the inverse of the impedance, as it was expected. The voltage amplitude to current amplitude ratio should be the same as the impedance magnitude, as Z = V/I. There was a small difference between the maximum voltage to current ratio of 3.69 to the minimum impedance of 3.72 Ω. The transfer function was converted into a discrete time version to make the simulations more efficient, but discrete time model is a non-exact approximation of the continuous time model. (See this MATLAB documentation page for more details.) Also, the "sampling rate" of slightly higher than 15x the chirp bandwidth was used for the discrete time model. This sampling rate should be able to capture the system dynamics with adequate accuracy. Increasing the sampling rate while keeping the total simulation duration the same can improve accuracy (higher sampling rate, same simulation duration = more time steps to compute). Note that this sampling rate is not the same as and unrelated to the Nyquist sampling frequency of the Shannon-Nyquist sampling theorem.
plot2_sine_sweep_simulation.png


Here are the results from the M-noise simulation. The peak voltage to peak current ratio was 7.79, significantly higher than the 3.72 Ω minimum impedance. This means if you estimate the peak current draw as the peak signal voltage divided by the minimum impedance, you would have overestimated the peak current draw by nearly 2x.
plot3_mnoise_simulation.png


Below are the histograms of the M-Noise signal voltage and current samples. The vast majority of samples have voltages <0.35 and currents <0.04, giving a ratio of ~8.8, which is close to the peak voltage to peak current ratio of 7.8.
plot4_histograms.png


In the case of the Stereophile simulated load, the minimum impedance occurs at ~4 kHz, a frequency range which the M-Noise (and most music/audio signals) does not contain a lot of energy. The peak voltage to peak current ratio depends heavily on the spectral energy distribution of the signal, and the speaker impedance to frequency characteristics. If a speaker has low impedance for a substantial portion of the low frequencies and the signal has a lot of energy in the low frequencies, this ratio could potentially be significantly lower and be closer to the minimum speaker impedance, meaning a higher demand for current from the amplifier.

What if we don't have the electrical models of our speakers? Theoretically we should be able to estimate a model when we have the frequency response (magnitude and phase). This is the topic of system identification. I haven't tried and have no experience with these tools yet. I leave you with a link to MATLAB's documentation page for "Estimating Models Using Frequency-Domain Data". May be some day I'll dip my toe into this topic.

So back to the question of how much current capacity do we need. The answer still depends on the signals and the speakers. But it is something that we can find out relatively easily and is no mystery. We just need access to some technical details and/or measurements of the gear. But it is not going to be some huge ungodly number, and it is not going to exceed the maximum anticipated amplifier output voltage (readily calculable from speaker sensitivity and listening SPL requirements) divide by the minimum speaker impedance, regardless of the phase angle.

ZIP file contains the Julia source code for the simulation in jmd (Julia markdown) format. The html file is the viewable output.

[Edit] Found a small error in my code that had a negligible effect on the results. I left out the resistor R5 (0.6 Ω) which meant it was 0 Ω in the previous calculations. Uploaded the updated ZIP file.
[Edit 2] In the off chance that someone may run my Julia code :p, I forgot to include the M-Noise WAV file. So here it is as a separate attachment.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Excellent analysis! Thank you!
 
This is all well above my pay grade.

But I would like to test my OG LS50s striving for "safe max SPL".

Members whose expertise I trust have stated the varying load/impedance of these speakers DOES require higher than normal current output at LF and high SPL.

My plan is to HPF at 170Hz or a little higher, use co-located MBM couplers for reinforcement between the LS50s and trueSubs below. Maybe this will slightly increase their safe max SPL?

I have OG GFA-555 as an overkill benchmark, not practical for my off-grid "nomadic" use case.

I plan to compare 3e A7 Mono which I've read, can hit transient peaks over 30A when fed 51V with 10A available.

Also Fosi CA30 4-ch which I do not expect to match, in Amir's testing queue for a while now.

If this theoretical modeling can predict IRL results that would be interesting to me.

Some such members have stated there won't be much audible difference, except getting up to non-linear levels that should not in any case be approached.

All feedback welcome, including correcting my misconceptions.
 
This is all well above my pay grade.

But I would like to test my OG LS50s striving for "safe max SPL".

Members whose expertise I trust have stated the varying load/impedance of these speakers DOES require higher than normal current output at LF and high SPL.

My plan is to HPF at 170Hz or a little higher, use co-located MBM couplers for reinforcement between the LS50s and trueSubs below. Maybe this will slightly increase their safe max SPL?

I have OG GFA-555 as an overkill benchmark, not practical for my off-grid "nomadic" use case.

I plan to compare 3e A7 Mono which I've read, can hit transient peaks over 30A when fed 51V with 10A available.

Also Fosi CA30 4-ch which I do not expect to match, in Amir's testing queue for a while now.

If this theoretical modeling can predict IRL results that would be interesting to me.

Some such members have stated there won't be much audible difference, except getting up to non-linear levels that should not in any case be approached.

All feedback welcome, including correcting my misconceptions.
This is a great exercise to do yourself! If you do this simple mathematics yourself, you will be much more convinced of the answer and will understand the principles.

Start with Ohms Law wheel:

ohmlawwheel.png

If you are confident that, say, the impedance at 100Hz is 3 ohms, you can calculate the current at say 27W by plugging it into the yellow square above just before 9 O'clock. The square root of 27 divided by 3 = 3 Amps. So at 27W (which will be loud!) you are drawing 3A. In practice, this is for a difficult sine wave, music is less challenging. Of course, the speaker may be very reactive in which case Volts and Amps will be higher but in a real speaker, not by much.
 
I appreciate the attempt but my poor old brain hurts just looking at all that. Maybe one day the fog will lift, meantime I'll set up to measure actual SPL.
 
I appreciate the attempt but my poor old brain hurts just looking at all that. Maybe one day the fog will lift, meantime I'll set up to measure actual SPL.
Don't give up so easily! It could not be simpler. In fact there is NOTHING simpler in audio than this!

In English, if you don't like letters:

To work out the current: Start by: dividing the power by the resistance : at 27 W and 3 Ohms = 27/3 = 9. See no calculator needed. THEN, calculate the square root of the answer you just got: the square root of 9 is 3. THAT'S IT! 3A

Every phone and PC has a calculator that can divide a number by another and then do a square root of the result.

Try it, it is exceptionally easy.
 
I know how to do math. But why did you pick those numbers?

Are you saying you think LS50 goes down to 3Ω ? Why 100Hz?

I'm told 80W is not necessarily enough, why pick 27?
 
I know how to do math. But why did you pick those numbers?

Are you saying you think LS50 goes down to 3Ω ? Why 100Hz?

I'm told 80W is not necessarily enough, why pick 27?
I did it so the mathematics was easy to follow! There's not much point giving a tutorial where the numbers confuse people :)

I've never looked at the impedance chart for a LS50. I was demonstrating how you can work this out yourself.

You keep telling us, post after post after post how you are "here to learn". Well, here is a superb opportunity for you to expand your basic knowledge.

80W at 1 Ohm is 8.9 Amps. 120W at 4 Ohm is 5.4 Amps. 400W at 1.9 Ohms is 14.4 Amps. Etc
 
LS50 goes down to 3.7ohm but has an 'equivalent peak dissipation resistance' which calculates at 1.7ohm around 135Hz.
source: https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-meta-loudspeaker-measurements

Amp requirement is max. 100W and I assume this is in 8ohm (not specified). This would be 28Vrms max.
Suppose a single tone (momentarily) around 135Hz is pumped into the speaker at 28Vrms then the current draw would be 16A (but not in phase).
If we were to adhere to the 3.7ohm then 7.5A would be sufficient.

In practice that load will not be as severe with music so current won't reach those values in practice.
 
Yes I already have known all that for many years.
I appreciate the attempt but my poor old brain hurts just looking at all that. Maybe one day the fog will lift
Which is it? Are you the person from post #6 or post #11? It would help people like me who are constructively trying to help and encourage you, if you were more consistent post to post.

You said your "poor old brain" couldn't cope. So I helpfully unpacked it for with a number of examples. You have been asking for weeks in multiple posts for help and guidance and explanation. Please go back and read some of your own posts. People in ASR are happy to help genuine queries and explain technical background. Post #6 seemed to be another such post.
It's just not connecting to what I posted about in practice.
Fair enough. Is the answer @solderdude gave more helpful? It's a lot more specific to the LS50.

Feeling bullied...
I have had thorough training to detect and resolve bullying in the workplace. No one is bullying you.
 
Yes I already have known all that for many years. It's just not connecting to what I posted about in practice.

Feeling bullied...
Be assured above members answering your questions are doing nothing but trying to help. They even adapted their explanation to what you said: that you find this stuff hard to understand. Giving example calculations and stuff.

You're getting the exact opposite of bullied.
 
If one is having trouble connecting the concepts to the equations to use, being told it is the simplest thing that nothing is easier is dispiriting. What a person tends to hear is that if you don’t get this you’re dumb.

I don’t think anyone is bullying, but also think that the examples unintentionally skip steps since the authors think those steps are obvious (since they are, to them).

In the other hand it is good to appreciate just how hard explaining something fully and clearly is.
 
Yes I do appreciate the attempts. My cognitive abilities do vary a lot according to many fluctuating factors. I'm happy to just move on wrt this topic for now, as I said I hope to actually measure and compare one day.
 
If one is having trouble connecting the concepts to the equations to use, being told it is the simplest thing that nothing is easier is dispiriting. What a person tends to hear is that if you don’t get this you’re dumb.

Saying it just like that would be. But not what happened here "oh mate it's really very simple, here's how you do it and for example it goes like this". That's the opposite: encouragement à la "you can do this bro".

Having the thinnest skin ever is not pleasant, I know that from younger years. It's very worth working on so you don't automatically assume the worst behind what people say. Most of the time they don't mean it badly.
 
Saying it just like that would be. But not what happened here "oh mate it's really very simple, here's how you do it and for example it goes like this". That's the opposite: encouragement à la "you can do this bro".

Having the thinnest skin ever is not pleasant, I know that from younger years. It's very worth working on so you don't automatically assume the worst behind what people say. Most of the time they don't mean it badly.
I don’t disagree at all but having been on both sides and now on the teaching side professional side, I have noticed I get better results if I skip the “this is easy” and go straight to “you got this” with a helping of “please let me know when I say something that doesn’t make sense”

Humans tend to forget that we had to learn pretty much everything and we tend to project our current knowledge both into the past and on to others.

Again I don’t think anyone was bullying here.
 
I don’t disagree at all but having been on both sides and now on the teaching side professional side, I have noticed I get better results if I skip the “this is easy” and go straight to “you got this” with a helping of “please let me know when I say something that doesn’t make sense”

Humans tend to forget that we had to learn pretty much everything and we tend to project our current knowledge both into the past and on to others.

Again I don’t think anyone was bullying here.
Yeah teaching methods naturally differ. I learned the basics in sergeant school. At the beginning of a lesson you lay out what it's going to be, and importantly what the goal is: what everyone will have learned in the end, with some encouragement like "you'll see, it looks complicated now but it's really very simple".

That's kinda important, because some things do seem discouragingly hard at first. There's always some insecure ones who me might think they won't get it. But they all do in the end, that's your responsibility as a teacher. Not everyone is a natural, I certainly wasn't. But you can learn this, and I did in the exact way above from my teaching teachers, heh.
 
I do not have any expectation of being explicitly taught here. Perhaps at some point it will click, or I will put in the effort required for self learning

That is my responsibility. Sometimes being "pushed" is productive, in this case not. I apologize for the bullying comment.
 
Back
Top Bottom