How much can i EQ / room correct?

[Opalius]

So, - thought I would play around with measuring my Dali Oberon 3 speakers at my listening spot and maybe do some EQ as I got a ECM800 Behringer.

... But the more I look at my measurements, the more I am confused :-/ - yes, I am a total noob at this with speakers

Here is the question, - how much can I EQ to get rid of nulls? I have a couple at around 50 hz, and the speakers are all over the place.

I generally tried to EQ down to prevent clipping, and I eq'ed to get a sound "flat". I kinda don't like the harman slope...

But the thing is, - I need to boost like 12 db to get the nulls out and in all I need to reduce the preamp in Equalizer APO by about -6db, not have any red in the "analysis panel"...
I have done separate filters for left and right speaker, 37 filters in all, but am I doing this all wrong? maybe overdoing it?

My listening spot is in an untreated living room, with me sitting 6 feet from my speakers, and the speakers are 6 feet apart.
For an amp I use a sony STR-DH190, so it's cheap and not the most powerful of all things...

Any advice is welcome Thanks

First foto is the left speaker before and after EQ at listening spot.

and this is left and right side after EQ

Listening spot...

 

[Holdt]

Well you got the result that you want so either stick with that and lower the gain on the EQ/pre amp to imitigate the boosts and raise the power amp attenuation or settle with a lesser result to keep pre-amp gain higher. -Have you tried listening to an EQ profile where the dips haven't been boosted if it's noticeable?

 

[Opalius]

Well you got the result that you want so either stick with that and lower the gain on the EQ/pre amp to imitigate the boosts and raise the power amp attenuation or settle with a lesser result to keep pre-amp gain higher. -Have you tried listening to an EQ profile where the dips haven't been boosted if it's noticeable?

Just did it today, I ended making a new EQ profile that just removes the tops, so I still have a null at around 50 hz and a small one at 250ish. I can't hear the null, and I noticed that trying to EQ out the null was only adding distortion on bass heavy music, as soon as I was listening at 90db. In short I don't think my amp is powerful enough .

Other then that, I'm really happy right now, the bass is soooo much tighter and much more detailed, midrange is also much nicer and sibilance is gone atleast at the listening spot.

Kinda wandering why not everyone is EQing???

 

[617]

Look at this illustration:

At any given frequency, reflections in your room will a complex pattern of peaks and valleys. Every point in space is different at every frequency. At some points, the geometry of the room dictates that a given frequency will be in phase with its own reflections - leading to a huge peak - or out of phase, leading to a big null. These peaks and nulls can be huge.

These patterns are big and lumpy at how frequencies, and at high frequencies they become much more complex. Eventually, they become so complex that they kind of even out.

When you EQ a null, you are indeed able to 'fill in' that frequency, but only at that point in space. At another point in space you will invariably be creating a huge peak. Similarly, if you use EQ to take a peak, you will be creating a huge dip at some other point in space.

When you consider how hard it is control bass sound-waves, you can start to see that creating good bass response is incredibly difficult.

One thing I would encourage you to do is not measure at one point in space, but create an average measurement by using an RTA and moving the microphone around in a big sweeping motion around your listening area. Or, take a series of measurements and average them. This will help ensure that you aren't making a localized equalization which screws something up elsewhere.

The other recommendation is to equalize each speaker seperately. At low frequencies, you want to equalize each sound source seperately. Since the speakers are at different points in space, they will have more power to affect the geometry of the sound field if you EQ them separately. Same with a sub or subs.

At mid-high frequencies, say above 200hz, I would EQ using broad peaking filters or shelving filters to get the relationship between bass/mid/high the way I like it. Different rooms absorb HF energy differently, so there is a subjective element here. If you listen at low levels, you may want more bass - or maybe more treble, if you want more detail. Provided your speakers are well designed, you should gently shape the response.

 

[Opalius]

One thing I would encourage you to do is not measure at one point in space, but create an average measurement by using an RTA and moving the microphone around in a big sweeping motion around your listening area. Or, take a series of measurements and average them. This will help ensure that you aren't making a localized equalization which screws something up elsewhere.

The other recommendation is to equalize each speaker seperately. At low frequencies, you want to equalize each sound source seperately. Since the speakers are at different points in space, they will have more power to affect the geometry of the sound field if you EQ them separately. Same with a sub or subs.

Tanks for the input. I already did EQ separately for L and R. As for doing average around the seating area, I did not think of that. I tried a couple of different measurements at different spots and noticed that the bass was almost always the same, but the high frequencyes at + 1000 Hz were always shifting.

It's almost like if I move my head 20cm to the left or right, or up and down, sometimes there would be sibilance. It's kinda hard finding the exact spot every time I sit down... But I guess room treatment can help with that?

 

[617]

Tanks for the input. I already did EQ separately for L and R. As for doing average around the seating area, I did not think of that. I tried a couple of different measurements at different spots and noticed that the bass was almost always the same, but the high frequencyes at + 1000 Hz were always shifting.

It's almost like if I move my head 20cm to the left or right, or up and down, sometimes there would be sibilance. It's kinda hard finding the exact spot every time I sit down... But I guess room treatment can help with that?

Sibilance is a high frequency phenomena, typically around 4-6 khz. It is not going to be as much room dependent but dependent on the dispersion of your speaker. For most speakers, the treble is loudest on the tweeter's axis. If you want to reduce sibilance, point the speakers directly at your ears and gently lower that region as needed.

I wouldn't EQ sibilance unless everything you listen to sounded too loud around 4-6khz. That frequency range is towards the top of the treble region and if you cut it out, detail will suffer.

 

[fpitas]

Sibilance is a high frequency phenomena, typically around 4-6 khz. It is not going to be as much room dependent but dependent on the dispersion of your speaker. For most speakers, the treble is loudest on the tweeter's axis. If you want to reduce sibilance, point the speakers directly at your ears and gently lower that region as needed.

I wouldn't EQ sibilance unless everything you listen to sounded too loud around 4-6khz. That frequency range is towards the top of the treble region and if you cut it out, detail will suffer.

I agree, unless the sibilance is caused by a big peak. Then some judicious EQ can help. Although the response graphs above don't show much going on up there.

 

[fpitas]

So, - thought I would play around with measuring my Dali Oberon 3 speakers at my listening spot and maybe do some EQ as I got a ECM800 Behringer.

... But the more I look at my measurements, the more I am confused :-/ - yes, I am a total noob at this with speakers

Here is the question, - how much can I EQ to get rid of nulls? I have a couple at around 50 hz, and the speakers are all over the place.

I generally tried to EQ down to prevent clipping, and I eq'ed to get a sound "flat". I kinda don't like the harman slope...

But the thing is, - I need to boost like 12 db to get the nulls out and in all I need to reduce the preamp in Equalizer APO by about -6db, not have any red in the "analysis panel"...
I have done separate filters for left and right speaker, 37 filters in all, but am I doing this all wrong? maybe overdoing it?

My listening spot is in an untreated living room, with me sitting 6 feet from my speakers, and the speakers are 6 feet apart.
For an amp I use a sony STR-DH190, so it's cheap and not the most powerful of all things...

Any advice is welcome Thanks

First foto is the left speaker before and after EQ at listening spot.
View attachment 248829
and this is left and right side after EQ

View attachment 248830

Listening spot...
View attachment 248831

Are those response graphs from time-gated measurements?

 

[Opalius]

Are those response graphs from time-gated measurements?

Time-gated?? As in "anechoic" measurements without room reflections?

Sorry for the noob questions here. And english is not my native language...

But as I understand the word anechoic, then the answer would be no :-/

 

[Holdt]

Just did it today, I ended making a new EQ profile that just removes the tops, so I still have a null at around 50 hz and a small one at 250ish. I can't hear the null, and I noticed that trying to EQ out the null was only adding distortion on bass heavy music, as soon as I was listening at 90db. In short I don't think my amp is powerful enough .

Other then that, I'm really happy right now, the bass is soooo much tighter and much more detailed, midrange is also much nicer and sibilance is gone atleast at the listening spot.

Kinda wandering why not everyone is EQing???

How much were the boosts before?

Yes, EQ is the only way to fix the sound if you don't want or you can't make a dedicated treated listening room.

 

[Opalius]

BIG UPDATE

Well, I did as suggested. I did in all 9 measurements at my seating position for the left side, and 9 for the right - 18 total. Here we have the right side only.

Also did an average of each side, and separate EQ for left and right.

In general, my first conclusion is that the Dali Oberon 3 are not "flat" speakers.
I found some mesuremenst i-fidelity.net that show the same trend as my measurements are showing. My best guess is that the speakers have a slight V tuning... This is what happens when you buy your first speakers by ear only, as I had a listen at a dealer and found them to have the best sound, very detailed and I liked the bass.... also it was within my budget, compared to some BW and other Dalis... :-/ Anyway...



Back to my measurements...
Right side all measurements before EQ - not that big difference over my listening spot...

Alle mesurements before and after EQ ( the after EQ are done at a lower volume because my girl was sleeping)

And finally the left and right side together weighted before and after EQ all averaged measurements at the listening position .

In conclusion, I am VERY happy with the results kinda hard learning curve with RAW and Apo Equalizer.

Besides tonal balance, the center image has become ALOT sharper, bass also improved in detail, - but most of all im happy because of the improvements in soundstage and center image.

Again thanks for input.

 

[Opalius]

How much were the boosts before?

Yes, EQ is the only way to fix the sound if you don't want or you can't make a dedicated treated listening room.

Before I had a 12 DB boost :-/ at the dip around 50 Hz...

 

[617]

What EQ did you apply? Post a screenshot of the filters if you can.

 

[Opalius]

What EQ did you apply? Post a screenshot of the filters if you can.

Alot Sould maybe get some bass traps or something, -but don't think my wife would approve.

Here are the numbers, and the analysis panel from equalizer Apo

Preamp: 0 dB
Channel: L
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 30.00 Hz Gain -3.20 dB Q 2.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 42.30 Hz Gain -3.80 dB Q 16.610
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 64.00 Hz Gain -9.00 dB Q 6.773
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 93.10 Hz Gain -1.60 dB Q 11.571
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 99.30 Hz Gain -5.60 dB Q 14.646
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 122.5 Hz Gain -4.90 dB Q 5.194
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 139.5 Hz Gain -5.60 dB Q 8.080
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 149.0 Hz Gain -3.80 dB Q 19.087
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 199.5 Hz Gain -4.50 dB Q 5.943
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 224.0 Hz Gain -5.90 dB Q 9.803
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 311.0 Hz Gain -3.80 dB Q 6.304
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 349.0 Hz Gain -4.90 dB Q 8.837
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 573.0 Hz Gain -5.20 dB Q 4.186
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 751.0 Hz Gain -3.50 dB Q 3.779
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 1208 Hz Gain -3.50 dB Q 4.200
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 1579 Hz Gain -1.40 dB Q 1.878
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 5698 Hz Gain -3.10 dB Q 1.229
Filter 18: ON PK Fc 10124 Hz Gain -3.90 dB Q 1.688
Channel: R
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 30.00 Hz Gain -2.90 dB Q 2.000
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 43.00 Hz Gain -4.70 dB Q 19.135
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 45.75 Hz Gain -5.50 dB Q 18.991
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 67.30 Hz Gain -7.60 dB Q 12.843
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 81.20 Hz Gain -3.30 dB Q 10.043
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 95.10 Hz Gain -4.80 dB Q 14.229
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 100.0 Hz Gain -5.70 dB Q 26.132
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 126.5 Hz Gain -9.40 dB Q 12.005
Filter 9: ON PK Fc 147.5 Hz Gain -7.30 dB Q 13.929
Filter 10: ON PK Fc 163.0 Hz Gain -5.90 dB Q 13.455
Filter 11: ON PK Fc 194.0 Hz Gain -6.10 dB Q 15.630
Filter 12: ON PK Fc 214.0 Hz Gain -7.30 dB Q 9.825
Filter 13: ON PK Fc 332.0 Hz Gain -4.20 dB Q 8.971
Filter 14: ON PK Fc 600.0 Hz Gain -5.30 dB Q 1.765
Filter 15: ON PK Fc 1244 Hz Gain -3.80 dB Q 2.251
Filter 16: ON PK Fc 5797 Hz Gain -3.40 dB Q 1.302
Filter 17: ON PK Fc 10124 Hz Gain -4.70 dB Q 1.930

 

[Ciobi69]

I don't know but an acoustician that i know told me that heavy EQ ruins the dynamics,and he told me to try to not exceed 3db of corrections..

 

[Opalius]

I don't know but an acoustician that i know told me that heavy EQ ruins the dynamics,and he told me to try to not exceed 3db of corrections..

Hm... can't say I'm an acoustician or know much, if anything about speakers and eq. Logic tells me that my speakers really don't care how much I eq then down. It's a digital signal and I'm just asking my speakers to do something else at a given frequency right?

Classical music for example has a dynamic range of between 20 and 32 DB so I don't see the problem? ( am I missing something?)

EQing up is kinda another story from what I so far have learned, and listened to distortion was a bloody mess when I tried to EQ out the nulls.

Manybe of I had 200-300 watts of power I would be able to do it... ?

So far I will take the Eq'ed version over the one without EQ.

 

[Holdt]

Before I had a 12 DB boost :-/ at the dip around 50 Hz...

Okay, that's also guaranteed trouble!

 

[kemmler3D]

if I move my head 20cm to the left or right, or up and down, sometimes there would be sibilance. It's kinda hard finding the exact spot every time I sit down... But I guess room treatment can help with that?

Yes, room treatment can help with this. However, keep in mind that most treatments take out more treble than lower frequencies. Think of it like lowering a high shelf. At some point you get an imbalance in the other direction.

Based on the photo of your room, treating first reflection points could help a good bit.

 

[Deleted member 35357]

Great for sharing your results!

Gonna be doing the same when the UMIC-2 arrives so I can do some proper measurements of my setup.
Want to do a EQ for the in-room response before I get new speakers so I know I won't be "downgrading" by getting something that shouldn't at least greatly outperform my old setup.

Good to learn the stuff before you get the better stuff bought.

Also gonna be trying EQ APO for this as you did, though others may object for a more proper solution if easier to be done with other tools.
This was just the way I saw it as the easiest to get started.