How much bass is enough?

[DVDdoug]

(I remember old receivers had some kind of filter especially for that).
Help me remember how it's called....

A rumble filter or maybe a subsonic filter.

 

[Marin]

I generally think that the price of good speakers is too high.
Just look at the new Cadentia..
But I'm salivating when I see a couple of them.

 

[Marin]

A rumble filter or maybe a subsonic filter.

Hey Doug.
What do you listen to music on?
Ja sam skoro 80% na Spotify because I have connect feature.The rest is CD'S.
Unfortunately mine reciver doesn't have Tidal connect so I need to use Yamaha app, which is not great (
I can't tell the difference in sound quality, but it seems to me that Tidal is louder for a given volume about 2 decibels?

 

[Imakeller]

How much bass is necessary?

I believe to be THX certified, a sub must be able to hit 115dB reference level peaks with minimal distortion and be flat to 20Hz. CEDIA’s RP22 guidance for Level 4 recommends capability of 123dB at 15Hz total system SPL at the RSP with no perceptible distortion or mechanical resonances. This will almost always require multiple quality subwoofers properly placed in a room. Some say these standards don’t go far enough to address infrasonic bass.

Individuals may rightly decide this level bass capability is not necessary for them, but the above standards are worthy targets IMHO.

 

[ZolaIII]

How much bass is necessary?

I believe to be THX certified, a sub must be able to hit 115dB reference level peaks with minimal distortion and be flat to 20Hz. CEDIA’s RP22 guidance for Level 4 recommends capability of 123dB at 15Hz total system SPL at the RSP with no perceptible distortion or mechanical resonances. This will almost always require multiple quality subwoofers properly placed in a room. Some say these standards don’t go far enough to address infrasonic bass.

Individuals may rightly decide this level bass capability is not necessary for them, but the above standards are worthy targets IMHO.

Do you want me to get Andy? DR= difference between quietest and loudest part in recording. In perspective +12 dB pay twice as loud. For tango you need two (DR 12) if it's complex three (DR 18) and if you want to go four times the charm THX cinema (JBL big boys to large hall DR 24). For music it's far more about THD and things with DR over 16~17 are quite rare. Even DR of 9 is fine for something not overly complex problem are over compressed materials with DR of 6~7 and less. THX whose never really ment for home use for many reasons.
That's why I like EBU R128 like broadcasting solution as it has to the margin of error (23 LUFS ±1) space even for THX to fit in to real 0 dB from desired program SPL.

 

[Imakeller]

Do you want me to get Andy? DR= difference between quietest and loudest part in recording. In perspective +12 dB pay twice as loud. For tango you need two (DR 12) if it's complex three (DR 18) and if you want to go four times the charm THX cinema (JBL big boys to large hall DR 24). For music it's far more about THD and things with DR over 16~17 are quite rare. Even DR of 9 is fine for something not overly complex problem are over compressed materials with DR of 6~7 and less. THX whose never really ment for home use for many reasons.
That's why I like EBU R128 like broadcasting solution as it has to the margin of error (23 LUFS ±1) space even for THX to fit in to real 0 dB from desired program SPL.

My answer to “How much bass is enough?” was given as a general response, not necessarily specific to the OP, or someone listening to just stereo music. Although, my answer seems to fit well to the extreme low end required in the charts and graphs you posted in posts #35 & #36, so maybe we aren’t far apart in our views? I agree with you on the DR and THD. The system needs to be robust enough to handle dynamic transients, and nobody wants sloppy, distorted bass at any SPL. Unless the OP is listening to Curtain Shaker all day, they won’t need bass capabilities to the level I suggested, but it gives me a measure of comfort knowing my system is capable of it for movies and music. The suggestion of at least two subs was driven more by delivering a smooth bass response in the room and countering nulls with placement.

 

[Marin]

Okay here are some measurements as requested.
I hope resolution is good because I don't know how to put mdat file here,if anyone can help I would be grateful.
Also how to lower time window when measured near field so that reflection can't creep up? But still get good good data in low bass.
Now is set default 500milisecond.

Here is that middle driver that is load with uper port and you can see that that below 100Hz it drops like a rock and the point where the box pressure holds it practically still is around 70Hz.
Is he even crossed there or?
It would have to be otherwise the output of all ports would be the same.

That port is same as two lower one's but since middle is crossed at 100Hz, the most output is in that range....
Never mind strange looking port resonance that is just reflection from other drivers....
Ok now woofer's

You can see the expected minimum-motion notch at the port tuning frequency that is around 48Hz.
Other notch I don't understand.
It's as if the cavities are connected but they're not?
And the famous bottom port

It is really strange looking configuration.
Feel free to coment...

 

[ZolaIII]

So you need a high pass at 75 Hz (or 80 Hz to relax them a little bit) 24 dB to deal whit what ever is upsetting woffer's at 57 Hz, 27 Hz is FS then it says no (impedance phase plot from first page). For two 5.25" 80 Hz 0 dB is a great result almost as single 8" one would give. I don't like how much reinforcement they give after the crossover but there you can't do much. You don't need botum port's when crossing with sub that will do that job so best is to plug it hopefully it helps and bringing down that interference behind the crossover and in general with cabinet refractions. That's about it to what you could do with F5 to extend it and make it sound better. It will also help a bit with 750 Hz deep but it won't fix it, you can try to rise phase there to mitigate it. It's not all that unusual. That's speakers only we need to see behaviour in room and dimensions of it (especially length).

 

[ZolaIII]

My answer to “How much bass is enough?” was given as a general response, not necessarily specific to the OP, or someone listening to just stereo music. Although, my answer seems to fit well to the extreme low end required in the charts and graphs you posted in posts #35 & #36, so maybe we aren’t far apart in our views? I agree with you on the DR and THD. The system needs to be robust enough to handle dynamic transients, and nobody wants sloppy, distorted bass at any SPL. Unless the OP is listening to Curtain Shaker all day, they won’t need bass capabilities to the level I suggested, but it gives me a measure of comfort knowing my system is capable of it for movies and music. The suggestion of at least two subs was driven more by delivering a smooth bass response in the room and countering nulls with placement.

To DR up to 20 and taking into consideration you won't go over reference calibration point +20 dB to it. If it's to DR up to 24 dB then +24 dB all to listening point/area of course. If for some reason (high ambient noise for example) you want to go over calibration point (85/88 dB white noise mono/stereo) ELC starts going in opposite direction slightly reducing bass. So it's 108~112 dB max to calibration point as low as it can follow I still think it's better to low self (as high pass will be taken already) sharply sub's at 25 Hz then let them go below of that (priorities THD there). Most folks don't understand that creating pressure chamber equilisation also ruins totally decay times for standing waves and then they impact main bass ritam section (simply staying above it or mixing with it) and this is much more important area as it well brings ritam/bit part.
So not so great practice. My favourite test track for that is a Black Cheken 37.

Of course you can't have it all great but compromising you can get both good (decay time and ratios). As always finding good initial placement to as good as possible is crucial.

 

[Marin]

So you need a high pass at 75 Hz (or 80 Hz to relax them a little bit) 24 dB to deal whit what ever is upsetting woffer's at 57 Hz

Yes, I understand what you're talking about, it makes sense when I get a better subwoofer(at least 12 incha or two 10')
Now when I crossed them at 70 and above(60 is too low,I get a big hole in that range.
End that is with ports,go figure?)They are rated 42-2000Hz but that must be -10db anechoic?
I get this experience
"Just bought a set of KEF R3 Meta, and they sound just fine, but quite "thin" at the mid-bass are. My DIY speakers with a pair of Satori WO24P per side, sound just as smooth and refined, but with much more volume - making them sound more powerful, but not in the typical "more bass" kinda way - no boominess - though more "full".
So IMO, we have to take the specific "picture" into consideration. The room, the setup, max SPL, the reference, the preference and the measurements.
I also "add" a little extra in the deep - below around 50Hz - since I like that "thumb" it adds to the sound.
Response is not super "clean" - because that is just all the "fun" my room adds to the output.
Simply that little driver can't replace 4 divers that are hitting you in the face(direct sound), and that is so obvious when it comes to image and scene...

 

[ZolaIII]

Yes, I understand what you're talking about, it makes sense when I get a better subwoofer(at least 12 incha or two 10')
Now when I crossed them at 70 and above(60 is too low,I get a big hole in that range.
End that is with ports,go figure?)They are rated 42-2000Hz but that must be -10db anechoic?
I get this experience
"Just bought a set of KEF R3 Meta, and they sound just fine, but quite "thin" at the mid-bass are. My DIY speakers with a pair of Satori WO24P per side, sound just as smooth and refined, but with much more volume - making them sound more powerful, but not in the typical "more bass" kinda way - no boominess - though more "full".
So IMO, we have to take the specific "picture" into consideration. The room, the setup, max SPL, the reference, the preference and the measurements.
I also "add" a little extra in the deep - below around 50Hz - since I like that "thumb" it adds to the sound.
Response is not super "clean" - because that is just all the "fun" my room adds to the output.

They are rated to - 6 dB of what port gives in ideal conditions and you aim at - 6 for Linkwitz Riley crossover but you aim to what woofer gives alone disregarding and pluging the port all together. For Butterwort you aim at - 3 and try to do it lower order (dB slope down) it's very important that end result corresponds to math model as much as possible and PEQ is saving grace to achieve that in crossing area and beyond it so it stays autended and can not interfere with what driver above is doing. When sub's leak in vocal area let's just say that doesn't sound good. Stressing out is when you cut speaker woffer to above what it can do max on it's own and make sweet spot for crossover where you want it. It doesn't struggle nearly as much after that pulling hard to what's difficult for it substantially rising output capabilities above that point or lowering THD there. Not very easy to do but menagable.
Now please present us where elephant would be in the room (m2 and length of the room to speaker orientation).

R3 Meta compress a lot on even remotely high SPL.

 

[Marin]

So it's 108~112 dB max to calibration point

My room is strange.It is a small two-room apartment of 50m².
The speakers are in the L-shaped living room of about 20m².
The speakers are at the narrow end of the wall so the sound travels through the hallway. It doesn't hurt to open the door to the room when playing loudly.
But I never listen to more than 85DB continuously (Lceq), with highs reaching 95 or less.
Music is very compressed....
They are 50cm from front baffle,on one side there are 40cm and on the other 3 meters where the kitchen table sets(open design (
I have a big three-seater,Two tambourines filled with wool so that kills a lot of sound, decay is quite good for what it could be. And The floor is laminate wood.
It couldn't be better to live here, I put a mattress behind the couch and left a little space....
I should hang one bass trap in the upper corner closest to the listening position.Sometimes, but that is very rare I swear I can hear the bass coming from that corner.Crazzy
Am I imagine it or....???

 

[Marin]

The distance between the two is about 2.6 meters and the listening position is 3 meters.
In the middle of them is a huge television, but the sound is hardly changed by a thick blanket over the screen.

 

[Marin]

Stressing out is when you cut speaker woffer to above what it can do max on it's own and make sweet spot for crossover where you want it. It doesn't struggle nearly as much after that pulling hard to what's difficult for it substantially rising output capabilities above that point or lowering THD there. Not very easy to do but menagable.

So ideally there would be two nice 10 inch subwoofers next to each speaker (2.2), and crossed at 120HZ and some EQ.
As Erin says, crossover is not a wall!

 

[ZolaIII]

Is it possible to switch to longer length of room regarding speakers orientation? Ideally at least 5 m room length or more. You want room FS to be at as low frequency it can be. Bass trap won't help you need 30 cm deep chamber to even get to the area.
Back to front refractions ratio in case of sub's you want them close to the wall behind it so that they pick it up but so that timing difference remains small as it can be. In case of the mains you do opposite bringing them out from the wall as much as you can to get as good ratio (direct sound to back wall refractions). If you can't pull mains out same rule as with sub's apply as the best next thing you can do in such case if port's are on the back you more than need to plug them then (foam plugs in diameter of port).
As much as I favor 2.2. It's hard to get to it (you need DSP where you have a freadom to remap chenels how you wish which somewhat still is the wall) and for benefit of proper ELC integration which won't work with F5's. Better would be simple 2.1 in center and to the wall behind as much as possible 80 Hz crossover and you're AVR certainly can do that much. As described with bottom port's plugged and you can try that right now (if you have foam plugs) with the small sub you already have (until you get better one).
Put a rug over the floor in front of speakers towards you, put thick or accustic curtains over the large glass areas and behind the speakers ideally the same thing. You can go and with double curtains that way you get a deacent chamber which is good enough to deal with mids and highs frequency range.
Can you by hand put PEQ's to AVR bank? If you can do room fundamental by hand (inverse single PEQ to correspond to the peek best you can) but not killing it entirely leaving it just to similar small average ones around it (that's natural your room) do it and enable it and only then let YPAO do the rest automatically on it's own. You do need a deacent measurement microphone and accustic timing measurements in REW in order to do it precise both looking at mesured frequency and energy plots.

 

[ZolaIII]

To 3m distance you need speakers which can do 96 (95 tho but compression tests are done at 96) with as little compression to none. That's in close range and you lose about 8 dB (not free field 9) in room to additional distance. This is to reach mono calibration point 85 dB at 3m. When they are able to do that good they certainly won't have a problem doing less than that even with ELC bass boost accounted in. And it's not a problem that ELC works properly in 2.1 setup to let's say low 70's SPL when it's 2.2 it will work good even to low 60's (normal talk levels). Average how most like to listen is mid 70's SPL for reference.

 

[Marin]

Wow so many good tips thanks guys.
I had them posted on the longest wall,but they are placed assimetricall.
The Sub is close to the wall.
The front baffle of mains is around 60 cm. or 25 inches from the back wall.(40 cm or 15 inches behind them)
I like them with all ports opened how they are design....
It's just doesn't make sense to me kill free bas which is a fundamental part of the music by plugging ports.
They are flat tuned with all them opened.
Yes if I listen my speaker at 90 degree angle)))
Is it threw that null and picks from SBIR is less pronounced when they are far from wall?