How much bass is enough?

[ZolaIII]

@Marin vocal range is 250 to 1000 Hz, 4000 for overtones to second harmonic. I can't find trustworthy full F5 measurements. What I did found will be enough (hopefully) and it's bad.
Let's start with frequency response plots from Sound and Vision.

F5 is purple, B5 is red it's same woofer and shows how little does the two additional one's on F5 crossed at 100 Hz. S10EQ blue line (close up measurements) is there to give you idea how you should cross F5's without high pass. I don't know where you diged bad looking Linton's plots we tend to use Spinorama for what's available. Yes crossovers should/could be lower for 8" woofer which would contribute to cleaner mids at the bright side mid range woffer is crossed at 2.4 KHz which is still high but difference is huge to one crossed at 3 KHz on F5 and it sure shows.
Sensitivity= SPL @ 1 W 8 Ohms from 1m.
Where on earth did you find subjectivist fairytale about cabinets on Serb-Croatian? I am really interested to hear that. Unfortunately as suspected cabinets are bad which somehow is usual for such cheaper flour stand speakers.

Lot of cabinet refractions as you can see.
It whosent about how much successful Andis speakers cost or good ones from competition it's about how this ain't one of those. In that regard E DBR62's stil hold their place for history and text books how much is achievable for minimal money. F5 SMPR regular price whose 850$ but you could buy them for 500$ new. Mentioned Linton's can be bought with stands for less than a 1000$ and without the stands for as little as 650 and for what you get that's pretty stellar. It's called YPAO loudness when it comes to Yamaha.
Now as you like them so much at least first picture gives you idea how they should be crossed without high pass (low self when it's a Yamaha) with a deacent sub. If you ask me it whosent your best purchase.

 

[Marin]

Yes, it's my most expensive audio purchase lately, I'm not after Sinad, I'm after functionality...
Also I have some gems here too

I still can't see value in Linton same aramid fiber cone's,same unsupported resonate cabinet.
And that goes to their top lines.... better cabinet though.
Cheap parts like tubes from wc paper...
That Sound and Vision has some kind of averaging like stereophile without bump in bas.

This is anechoic measurements of B6(same tweater) with Arta from Italian magazine.

You can see that twitter has flat extension till 16 000hz.
Also acoustical crossover is around 2 400hz.
I couldn't find F5, but here's F6 same configuration,same twitter and 3 way configuration.
From Polish magazine

Yes, I agree with you that the main problem with this speaker is the housing, and every cabinet has internal waves in some extent and panel resonance that is not audible,but you won't find a better one until you start throwing some serious money at the KEF R SERIES, and Revels, Canton...
But that cumulative spectral decay that you show has 25 db scale and the perturbations are 20 decibels below threshold.I yet didn't see good clean cumulative spectral decay.
Now let's look at your winner Elac DBR 63 reviewed here by Amir

Wow!What is that?
So many resonance for 2 driver configuration and the scale is only 15db.
Let's look at buid

What whole back panel resonate with woofer, very bad use of bracing...

And that's for book shelf model that is small and better handle vibrations(smaller surface).
Not cheap and certainly not a champ.

 

[Marin]

Where on earth did you find subjectivist fairytale about cabinets on Serb-Croatian? I am really interested to hear that.

What are you talking about?
Also look where baritone male voices starts.
Tenor at around 130, and baritone as love as 82 herz.

 

[Marin]

Why can't you be happy, countryman, that I found a pair of cheap speakers that put a smile on my face as soon as I start them?
I've been looking forever to find something that is musical and not tiring to listen without breaking my bank.
But if you have something better, we can easily come to an agreement, fellow countryman ))

 

[ZolaIII]

That B6 ended even worse, step response error and answer why he pushed mid woffer so high (to mitigate it) on F5.
You do see where main propagation is in the cabinet for DBR62.

100 Hz, what is higlited are it's it's second harmonic. When you cut above it you lose and propagations (harmonics). In order to stress the driver out you cut it at it's peek output (driver alone as to closed buffle). Now let's get back to Linton's 8" woffer and where is that ideally for them. Still 120 Hz but what could you get by doing something as silly as that? Huge dynamic headroom over it for start for comparation purpose take a look at Erin's compression measurements of it. Goal ain't reaching the stars just flying hi at low THD and there is much more information in ritam/drum/beat section of main bass then will ever be in it's low bass peek suport. Those are two main peeks in all recorded materials. Mids have their own and has the most informations, really crowded space with lot of tones and overtones especially in uper mid range 1 KHz where is our hearing by no coincidence also most sensitive. Better you authend first fundamentals so that they don't have created by them self harmonics coming nowhere to messing with mids and rest of the spectrum better job you did. Now that's easier say then done when you suddenly nead a huge boost in low to sub bass (ELC) because you want to listen on lower volume or because you can't do it as loud as you would like. It's not how much bass do you need it's how much it needs to be pushed so you can hear all 9 octaves at different SPL and I am still trying this much just to get you understand the answer to your question.

 

[ZolaIII]

What are you talking about?
Also look where baritone male voices starts.
Tenor at around 130, and baritone as love as 82 herz.
View attachment 509810

Direktno o ovome.
What do you think will something in 83 Hz range sound better on cuple time bigger cone (sub) then 2x little ones that barely can reach it or same thing on still 2x the cone stressed out mid bass woffer for 130 Hz?

 

[Marin]

It was an Elac ad on Amazon and I didn't realize my phone had translated it.

Anyway, I'd love to have two true 8-inch woofers and a 4-inch midrange speaker with a short aluminum voice coil,with X material from Wilson for cabinet.
But that doesn't guarantees that I will be any happier than some begginer with Wharfdale Diamond 10.1 and that is why I love this hobby.
Look for the thread where our man from Chile is not at all happy with the Elisium 4 flagship from Wharfdale with two proper 8 inch woffer (30hz free resonance)
And it paid around 10 000 dollars just to find out that they fall at 80hz like rock, because they have go for sensitive not extension.

 

[ZolaIII]

Told you Polk there...

Measurements for speaker Polk Audio Reserve R700

www.spinorama.org

 

[Marin]

Told you Polk there...

Measurements for speaker Polk Audio Reserve R700

www.spinorama.org

Nice

 

[Avp1]

Yes, that's the next investment,silent servo sub with good transient no less than 12"
Any suggestions?

Rythmik

 

[Marin]

Too much bass? Why I never! I agree that you just set it to what you like and then move on. Enjoy what you have as its all good.

Thank you, friend, for your support.
Yes everything is fine.Technology has come a long way since my younger days when we're listen with magnetic tape(Cassette player) hissed and howling was so annoying, you could not focus on music if life depends on that

 

[Matt34]

+6db curve in my living room is a tad much for me, but +4db is too lean. I need to experiment with somewhere in the middle.

Speakers are either Paradigm Premier 700F (80hz crossover) or Buchardt s400 mk2 (90hz crossover) with a Rythmik E15hp.

 

[Marin]

Yes very nice speakers, even better subwoofer.
How much does such a good subwoofer cost?
I assume you're happy with him.

 

[Marin]

+6db curve in my living room is a tad much for me, but +4db is too lean.

Yes, I understand what you're talking about, but for me it's more about what genre of music plays.
For example, +4 is enough for me with EDM music,R'n'B and Rap,mixed with a good amount of bass.
But with Rock,Rock and roll,especially classical music I need to bump by 1,5,2 db more...
Pop is a strange plant and it seems that every song, album is a master differently?
This is where this feature in Music Cast comes in handy.

It just boosts as far as your subwoofer goes, without interfering with voices.

I used to have a lot of trouble with that and it seemed like the singers were in a barrel.(Too much muddy sound....)
This is my favorite feature of this AVR.
Otherwise I'm a purist and have almost everything turned off except this and Equal loudness compensation.

 

[ZolaIII]

This is ISO 226 2003.

Last iteration has time base compensation for sub bass counted in but there is no sub which will be able to follow it, you can get there by clever use of room fundamental but it has to be long (7.5~8 m) big room.

This is how it looks in practice:

It's JRiver's ISO 226 2003.
It didn't differ much in all studies (100+ till now) ever done.

Gerne dosent influence it, but if program (base set) SPL is not the same will. In other words loudness wars and different loudness levels from set/desired ones. Unfortunately even today this problem is not resolved and different normalisation implementations are making things well the same. For materials you might poses in digital form (not DRM) you can do EBU R128 and +11 dB gain increase (so that you don't lose output with it), good part of streaming content will be done with it in part of the world where that is the must (law enforced in EU). Plenty of free implementation of it for software players.

 

[ZolaIII]

There won't be big difference regarding either function or quality in reproduction between different brands of subwoofer's. It's about size, driver FS and how much SPL it can give and to how low it keeps it. In that regard you aim at mid 30's SPL it can give. As they are big and heavy they are pricy especially in parts of the world which doesn't have good logistics or even in part that has to the part they were made. So availability and price are next biggest factor when you want to buy them.
Is it; Rythmik, B&O, B&W, SVS... is less important. Of course depending on build quality come and life expectations still mainly transformer (if its old iron core to new switching one it will last in that department 2x longer). Which typology is the amp is not important (as it will do so narrow frequency range anyway) and cheap Class D plate amp's dominate segment. So it's: performance/price/availability to where you are.
Edit: just to add (probably far hundred time) best info graphic there probably is.

 

[Marin]

There won't be big difference regarding either function or quality in reproduction between different brands of subwoofer's. It's about size, driver FS and how much SPL it can give and to how low it keeps it. In that regard you aim at mid 30's SPL it can give. As they are big and heavy they are pricy especially in parts of the world which doesn't have good logistics or even in part that has to the part they were made. So availability and price are next biggest factor when you want to buy them.
Is it; Rythmik, B&O, B&W, SVS... is less important. Of course depending on build quality come and life expectations still mainly transformer (if its old iron core to new switching one it will last in that department 2x longer). Which typology is the amp is not important (as it will do so narrow frequency range anyway) and cheap Class D plate amp's dominate segment. So it's: performance/price/availability to where you are.
Edit: just to add (probably far hundred time) best info graphic there probably is.
View attachment 509970

Hey friend, I'm just admiring the voice of the unfortunately late deceased Whitney Houston
.I would like to get a good subwoofer, used of course.
But as you said the good ones are too expensive.
I'll have to get it used ,at least I don't need to run in first 100 hours
The prices here are astronomical for Valodine, JBL, KEF....
Do you have any suggestions?
You're right that I should have chosen a subwoofer based on its output(SPL) per watts in 30-60 range?
Instead I was looking for cheap quiet, AB reinforcements were a priority

 

[Marin]

But that kick drum that has that tump right about 50hz is where my endorphins are released lol.
Don't know much about region below 30hz and how important they are in sound and movie.
I finally donated my LPs so I no longer have a pleasure to listen to LP so I don't need to worry about one big problem when it comes to subbase (I remember old receivers had some kind of filter especially for that).
Help me remember how it's called....

 

[ZolaIII]

Hey friend, I'm just admiring the voice of the unfortunately late deceased Houston.I would like to get a good subwoofer, used of course.
The prices here are astronomical for Valodine, JBL, KEF....
Do you have any suggestions?
You're right that I should have chosen a subwoofer based on its output(SPL) per watts in 30-60 range?
Instead I was looking for cheap quiet, AB reinforcements were a priority

Where are you? Hardly that I do for used ones. There are always diler specials and discounts if you are patient. Second hand is for me into like new barely used up to 2~3 years old. Of course there are sub's that can last 20+ year's same as amplifiers but sadly current Yamaha offering is hard to recommend. I did mark you a database to best I know you need to dig in and search especially regarding second hand stuff.

 

[Marin]

Where are you? Hardly that I do for used ones. There are always diler specials and discounts if you are patient. Second hand is for me into like new barely used up to 2~3 years old. Of course there are sub's that can last 20+ year's same as amplifiers but sadly current Yamaha offering is hard to recommend. I did mark you a database to best I know you need to dig in and search especially regarding second hand stuff.

Yes, and thank you for that.
I am here in Split, Dalmacija.Croatia(Hrvatska) and it's very hard to get good stuff, and almost impossible if you want to try it out.
We have one store with good stuff, but sales are weak and they are choosing the wrong brands.
Magnat, dynaudio,JBL and poor Audio Vector 8 is hanging now for 2 years in the shop window and he still doesn't want to lower the price???
My friend is interested in a couple.
They are beautiful and well-made speakers.
But the price 4500EU???
I suppose that "grounding feature" it's worth $2000 or Euros for people who would invest in thick snake cables anyway.And let's not forget power stations