How much amplifier power is required?

[gasolin75]

wiim amp pro

My speakers are rated at 88db, at some area they go down to 4 ohm and sensitivity is around 85db not 88db (meassured in some reviews of my speakers)

Amirm from asr say the amp has som kind of limit when turning it all the way up there is no distortion

90% limit do to my sub not being able to keep up these few times i wanted to play 100/100% 100% limit 100% volume, 90% limit (main speaker) and my sub playes what ever it's surpose to do with room corection and the 90% limit from my main speakers it's better but the last 10% makes my system go LOUD

2x59 watt in 8 ohm 2x117 watt in 4 ohm and it's more then adequate, i just want my sub to keep up with the main speakers when they are at 100%

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I think if you have an average room, listen about 2.5/3m away, even for 87dB sensitivity (anechoic) speakers, for most albums, 100w/ch would be sufficient for sane level SPL (by sane, less than 80dB).

uuuh.... are we talking peak or average?

80dB average is pretty loud, especially with lots of high frequency content.

80dB peaks (which are usually sub bass), is bloody anemic. Even moreso, if you listen to modern music and want tactile bass. 100-120dB is where it's at.
That's why proper subwoofer amps are near or in the KW range.

The problematic amp power demands occur mostly when people want to ensure that these peaks are free of clipping. Whether clipping on transient peaks can be heard is another matter.

 

[PristineSound]

uuuh.... are we talking peak or average?

80dB average is pretty loud, especially with lots of high frequency content.

Average, and I said "by sane, less than 80dB"

Yes, and I absolutely agreed that 80dB average is pretty darn loud. There are so many people I talk to and they don't think 80dB is loud, I have no idea how their ears can physically handle that kind of SPL.

80dB peaks (which are usually sub bass), is bloody anemic. Even moreso, if you listen to modern music and want tactile bass. 100-120dB is where it's at.
That's why proper subwoofer amps are near or in the KW range.

I should clarify that 80dB average across the frequency spectrum, I agree. But you also have to keep in my that bass is super room dependent. I have a track that in one room because of standing waves, it rumbles the room with just bookshelves. But in another room, I would need subs to get the same effect.

 

[gasolin75]

80 db avarge a few inches from the woofer is not loud

80db peak 2 feet away from the speakers peak is not loud

80 db avarage is not loud (we are getting there)

less than 2 feet from my phone avarage is 80 db the girl is mine michael jackson tidal, limit on my wiim amp pro 90% limit volume 100% avarage spl i 82db peak is 88db

Even when it 5 watt watt peak or so it shouldn't play only 88db peak, 10 watt peak at 95db but doesn't, 10 watt is + 10db

5 watt is 7db so it should peak above 90db but it doesn't

So where does all the power go ? is the last 10% from 90% limit to 100% limit = + 10db and why can't my sub keep up with my main speakers it has 150 watt

90 db peak is loud, 90 db avarage is super loud, 100 db avarage is party level, for some 100db peak is party level rock concert 90-100db avarage at a good distance like 4 meters from the speakers (closes you might be to a subwoofer at a live outdoor rock concert) is very loud.

 

[gasolin75]

Yes, and I absolutely agreed that 80dB average is pretty darn loud. There are so many people I talk to and they don't think 80dB is loud, I have no idea how their ears can physically handle that kind of SPL.

I guess you have been in a cinema with a thx sound system, right ?

85db avarage and peaks up to 105db https://www.thx.com/questions/what-is-the-reference-level/

Don't say 80 db avarage is loud, 83 db sensitive speaker like harbeth p3esr only needs 1 watt for 83db but 1 watt isn't enough at 2 or 4 meters to the speaker, we then are talk about atleast 10 watt or more + the aditional power required to play 10 watt super clean, let's say we givet it alll it's got Power handling: 50W programme 2x50watt or 2x100 watt so your to be able to play 2x50 watt peak 100% clean from the amp without damaging the speakers, because we know distortion from an amp is bad for speakers

 

[PristineSound]

I guess you have been in a cinema with a thx sound system, right ?

Very good point. I don't go to cinemas often now, but when I do go, I have to use an ear plug when I got to cinemas (and these are non-Imax theatres). The worst part is when I forget my ear plugs, I have use some napkins and plug up my ears. The peculiar thing is that, I wasn't like this when I was younger.

So in that sense, you are now making me think that maybe I personally just don't have as much tolerance for high SPL than the average person.

 

[gasolin75]

My local place is like a shopping center

cinema,movies,concerts, library,art gallery.

Sitting close to the closed door when reading the latest news paper, i often think when they are showing a movie, why does it have to be so loud, not all of us are heard of hearing or just don't want it that loud

None the less 80 db avarage isn't loud for normal music at a distance of 2-3-4 meters (up to 1.5 meter is nearfield)

I play music at a different spl compared to tv, king of queen, the big bang theory or just a romantic movie

Grease,saturday night fever (music) or mad max fury road can be a little louder

AI

The thing is with 85 db or 83 db sensitive speaker like mine or harbeth p3esr, 1 watt avarage and a little more for peaks (lest say 10db,10 watt), is just not enough, a nad 3020A,b e and i are pleanty for most speakers and people when not wanting to play super loud

We just have,want more to be shure there are enough clean power (no distortion when playing loud) with avarage sensitive speakers (83-87db sensitivity), if we all had 95db tekton design speakers, we all would have enough power with a Nad 3020 or a Sugden A21SE Signature class a 2x23-30 watt in 8 ohm amps

 

[Ropeburn]

Very good point. I don't go to cinemas often now, but when I do go, I have to use an ear plug when I got to cinemas (and these are non-Imax theatres). The worst part is when I forget my ear plugs, I have use some napkins and plug up my ears. The peculiar thing is that, I wasn't like this when I was younger.

So in that sense, you are no making me think that maybe I personally just don't have as much tolerance for high SPL than the average person.

I think I know what you mean, my ears are similarly sensitive and painfully distort in the mids way earlier than average.

It depends on the venue and sound characteristics of the material whether it's okay or getting too much for me. For example once on a Kraftwerk concert with a terrific soundsystem and very favourable venue, open air but on a parade ground secluded by walls, it was subjectively very loud and most of that came from the epic wall of deep, clean, belly punching bass. No pain, perfectly fine. Great experience of high quality sound, many people afterwards said it was the best sounding concert they've been to yet.

Interestingly, Air played as their opening band and sounded mediocre at best. Somewhat middy and shouty, I had to get further away from the stage, even though by average it seemed not as loud as Kraftwerk - they didn't have that thunder bass. Same venue, same soundsystem, same engineers, remarkable difference.

 

[gasolin75]

fatigue sound volume doesn't matter, it's fatigue to listen to no matter the volume

Super sound quality you can't listen to it much louder

Often high end systems has loud highs and can make it very fatigue

B&W latest 600 series are not good and S1 and S2 are even worse, 60,80 or 100db it doesn't matter, with most amp fatigue kicks in very fast

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

90 db peak is loud, 90 db avarage is super loud, 100 db avarage is party level, for some 100db peak is party level rock concert 90-100db avarage at a good distance like 4 meters from the speakers (closes you might be to a subwoofer at a live outdoor rock concert) is very loud.

90dB transient peak at the MLP would be ~70-75dB average, on well mixed, dynamic material.
90dB average at the MLP would be almost unbearable to most listeners in normal rooms and peaks could go as high as 110dB.

You really should make some tests with a calibrated SPL meter. You'd be surprised.

BTW: just because your speaker has 83dB sensitivity does not mean you get 83dB with one watt on your couch. Each doubling of distance loses you 3dB. So at 4m distance you already lost 12dB and are now at 71dB SPL. Your amp needs to make up for these losses and that means you need 16W (each doubling of amp power gets you +3dB SPL) to reach the 83dB. Add in peaks with another 15dB and you are already at 512W for guaranteed clip free playback even on transient peaks of well mastered, highly dynamic material.

As for listening fatigue: a lot of factors go into that. Distortion, spectrum, volume, bode plot of your ears, characteristics of the room...
It's a complex thing and highly personal. Even state of mind plays a role. Sometimes I get fatigued super quickly, sometimes I can listen for hours. Same system, same music, same room, same volume.

I think I know what you mean, my ears are similarly sensitive and painfully distort in the mids way earlier than average.

I can empathize.
I can't go much past 100dB Z-weighted transient peak. Just sounds shrill to my ears. No matter if uber expensive headphones or well made speakers.

My ears just don't like the treble/mids.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Add in peaks with another 15dB and you are already at 512W for guaranteed clip free playback even on transient peaks of well mastered, highly dynamic material.

I suspect most low sensitivity (83dB/w) drivers can't take than without damage or non-linearity either!

 

[gasolin75]

That's why i mention 1 watt might not be enough even when you have 10 db peak power

The other day i listen to Radiant acoustics Clarity 4.2 very compact and super inefficient speakers 78 dB @ 2,83 VRMS ~ 1 W @ 8 ohm

Connected to sonos amp 2x125 watt it played almost as loud as it could (the amp), heard some weak distortion and the 2 passive woofers moved alot, close to what i think is max excursion (bass was approved) just shy of loud, if the sound had to be louder and cleaner i think 2x200 watt

Harbeth p3esr is bearly any louder with 50 watt and 83db sensitivity, therefor a sub is requirement with a high pass filter in anything bigger then a small

so what you need in power also depends on small inefficient speakers + a sub and high pass filter for the main speaker or bigger speaker and no sub

2x100 watt is bare minimum for small very inefficient speakers, 2x200 watt if they can handle it and you wanna play loud

 

[gasolin75]

I suspect most low sensitivity (83dB/w) drivers can't take than without damage or non-linearity either!

not as low as 83db but still low compared to many reviewers

Monitor 40.5 XD2 loudspeaker - Harbeth

Experience unmatched clarity and precision with the Harbeth M40.5 XD2 loudspeakers - designed for audiophiles seeking the ultimate in high-fidelity sound.

harbeth.co.uk

 

[RichB]

90dB transient peak at the MLP would be ~70-75dB average, on well mixed, dynamic material.
90dB average at the MLP would be almost unbearable to most listeners in normal rooms and peaks could go as high as 110dB.

You really should make some tests with a calibrated SPL meter. You'd be surprised.

BTW: just because your speaker has 83dB sensitivity does not mean you get 83dB with one watt on your couch. Each doubling of distance loses you 3dB. So at 4m distance you already lost 12dB and are now at 71dB SPL. Your amp needs to make up for these losses and that means you need 16W (each doubling of amp power gets you +3dB SPL) to reach the 83dB. Add in peaks with another 15dB and you are already at 512W for guaranteed clip free playback even on transient peaks of well mastered, highly dynamic material.

As for listening fatigue: a lot of factors go into that. Distortion, spectrum, volume, bode plot of your ears, characteristics of the room...
It's a complex thing and highly personal. Even state of mind plays a role. Sometimes I get fatigued super quickly, sometimes I can listen for hours. Same system, same music, same room, same volume.

I can empathize.
I can't go much past 100dB Z-weighted transient peak. Just sounds shrill to my ears. No matter if uber expensive headphones or well made speakers.

My ears just don't like the treble/mids.

I was surprised measuring my speakers at my listening position with the UMIK-1.
The combination of two speakers and room gain, yielded the speaker sensitivity rating of 86 dB at my seating position.
I suspect that this may be true in many cases.

The Revel Salons2s produced 86 dB at 2.83 volts (with 0 dB full scale 1 and 2kHz tones).
Since these are basically 4 Ohm speakers, that requires about 2 watts.
This makes sense since is room gain and two speakers. That seems fair given that no one is listening to one speaker.
The processors volume was at -31.
With digital sources, it is simple to compute the maximum volume setting that will NEVER clip.

This calculation indicates that source that reach 0 dBFS driving the Salon2s could clip with the volume set to -10.
Perhaps this is not loud enough for all sources, but I have not found that to be an issue.

Using Sarah McLachlan's "I Love you" as a clip test, the meters, the bi-amped AHB2s clip never clip at -8. The ATI6000s bi-amping never clipped at -5.
The AHB2s produce about 200 watts into 4 Ohms and the AT6000s produce 450 watts into 4 Ohms, about 3 dB.
This is extremely loud, in both cases, something I would only do for a clipping test.

Since doing this experiment, I have noticed the volume levels playing ATV4K HT (Salon2 front/rear and Voice2) vary wildly.
Some requiring -27 for clear dialog down to -6.
Theoretically, the AHB2s could clip at -6 but I have never seen this occur.
Things get pretty loud playing 5 speakers and two dual-12 inch Rythmik subwoofers.

The AHB2 has sensitive clip indicators and will turn off at about 1% distortion so there is little concern for speaker damage.
I have a greater concern for ear damage.

- Rich

 

[Ropeburn]

90dB transient peak at the MLP would be ~70-75dB average, on well mixed, dynamic material.
90dB average at the MLP would be almost unbearable to most listeners in normal rooms and peaks could go as high as 110dB.

You really should make some tests with a calibrated SPL meter. You'd be surprised.

BTW: just because your speaker has 83dB sensitivity does not mean you get 83dB with one watt on your couch. Each doubling of distance loses you 3dB. So at 4m distance you already lost 12dB and are now at 71dB SPL. Your amp needs to make up for these losses and that means you need 16W (each doubling of amp power gets you +3dB SPL) to reach the 83dB. Add in peaks with another 15dB and you are already at 512W for guaranteed clip free playback even on transient peaks of well mastered, highly dynamic material.

As for listening fatigue: a lot of factors go into that. Distortion, spectrum, volume, bode plot of your ears, characteristics of the room...
It's a complex thing and highly personal. Even state of mind plays a role. Sometimes I get fatigued super quickly, sometimes I can listen for hours. Same system, same music, same room, same volume.

I can empathize.
I can't go much past 100dB Z-weighted transient peak. Just sounds shrill to my ears. No matter if uber expensive headphones or well made speakers.

My ears just don't like the treble/mids.

Don't forget the second speaker (+3dB), and room gain, which can be another 3dB too.

That's not insignificant because it can mean the difference between 125 and 500W for example.

 

[RichB]

Don't forget the second speaker (+3dB), and room gain, which can be another 3dB too.

That's not insignificant because it can mean the difference between 125 and 500W for example.

Exactly!
Which is why a baseline tone, a good mic, and measurement at 2.83 volts removes all the mystery of the gain.

Not everyone can do that, but I suspect many here can. So why guess?

- Rich

 

[PristineSound]

90dB transient peak at the MLP would be ~70-75dB average, on well mixed, dynamic material.
90dB average at the MLP would be almost unbearable to most listeners in normal rooms and peaks could go as high as 110dB.

You really should make some tests with a calibrated SPL meter. You'd be surprised.

100%

I am getting the feeling that many people are overestimating how much SPL their ears can really handle.

Using a calibrated SPL meter to +/-1.8dB, with a SPL of low 70's dBC at the listening position with a noise floor between 41/42 dBC, it is very comfortable. With most of today's compressed music, it will hit a dynamic range peak of about low to mid 80's and that is a nice punch for me.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I suspect most low sensitivity (83dB/w) drivers can't take than without damage or non-linearity either!

On transient peaks? I doubt there would be damage but I'd not be surprised if there were non linear effects.
I am not sure whether amp clipping on transient peaks would even be audible, so this whole obsession of "everything needs to be clip free" may be misguided in the first place.

The combination of two speakers and room gain, yielded the speaker sensitivity rating of 86 dB at my seating position.
I suspect that this may be true in many cases.

Yup, 83dB, single speaker was an extreme example. There is a reason why most amps are around the 100W/ch mark. It is enough for clean playback in most domestic purposes. Especially when you factor in subs that take the most taxing signals out of the equation.

I am getting the feeling that many people are overestimating how much SPL their ears can really handle.

Using a calibrated SPL meter to +/-1.8dB, with a SPL of low 70's dBC at the listening position with a noise floor between 41/42 dBC, it is very comfortable. With most of today's compressed music, it will hit a dynamic range peak of about low to mid 80's and that is a nice punch for me.

I measured similar averages for my listening habits as well. My equipment is balanced around 90dB transient peaks and typically I go down from that point for extended listening. Especially on more compressed music.

Since I listen near-field at approx 1m speaker distance, power calculations are rather easy. Suffice it to say that the amps of my Denon are usually bored. :'D

 

[Frank Dernie]

On transient peaks?

Voice coil torn from its former was not uncommon IME though the tube is made from stronger materials perhaps nowadays.

 

[Jokke]

I drive my 90dB efficiency speakers (dip to 3Ohms) with a Hypex amp of 100W@8Ohm/200W@4Ohm.
My sub with double woofers has a 1000W (!) Hypex amp built in.
My listening room is 45m2.

At normal to high listening levels, I never run out of power/dynamics.
I never exagerate with the listening levels, but I have no idea what power I am really using.