How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[dlaloum]

The musicians' instruments are not changed according to venue. That's my point - they are not DSP'd, neither should they be, and the sound will vary subtly at different venues and from different listening positions.

I beg to differ - as I described in my earlier posting, when I set up some reinforcement for an acoustic instrument concert, and the artist requested that I substantially boost the bass... ie: apply DSP... the way he wanted his acoustic instrument to sound, was a DSP adjusted sound. (NOT my preference!)

 

[dlaloum]

You would think that the two SHOULD sound the same, but they don't. The black recording (with the subwoofers) has way more power and chest thump.

The F/R plots don't tell us a lot about peak SPL capability ....

 

[Waveform Fidelity]

Group Delay is a kind of distortion.

It's exactly a distortion - the change of phase with frequency which distorts the time waveform. Its most audible at low frequencies, but one cannot ignore the transfer function of the room at these low (bass) frequencies.

 

[dlaloum]

I sincerely believe that you need to refrain from posting inaccuracies.
High Fidelity is the accurate reproduction of the full audible spectrum. For most people on this forum that would be between 20 Hz and 15 KHz ... We lose our sensitivity to the treble but retain it in the bass. Fact, not an opinion.

Source: Effect of Ageing on Hearing Thresholds in the Low Frequency Region*

We must hear the bass ,else it is almost hi-Fi ...
Now concerning that thing about the "carefully chosen" mains... Are you trying to say that in a small room it is best to chose main speakers that are deficient in the lows? Because if your mains are "full range", they will exacerbate the exact same room modes as any subwoofers... That again is a fact.
So in your opinion, small room = choose bass-limited mains...Perhaps you could go for a midrange only speaker system

And yet by broad concensus (like any Linguistic phenomenon), the vast majority of "High Fidelity" speakers have never been capable of 20Hz, and the definition of full range speakers, has been speakers that extend down into the sub 50Hz frequencies, with only very few being capable of 20Hz.

My "Full Range" gallo's have -3db at 24hz, and my full range B&O Penta at 35Hz, both have always been considered "Full Range"

There are plenty of frequency limited bookshelf speakers that are now and have for the past 50+ years, been considered "high fidelity" without being "full range".

Honestly the key criteria has always been the midrange - not bass or high extension - those are bonuses! - do the full range of human voice properly, and you are in the realm of "HiFi"

You want to hear midrange magic, voices that are "real" and can give the impression of being in the room with you, listen to a vintage pair of Quad ESL57's... limited bass, limited highs, but a totally magical midrange, pretty much unmatched by anything else - a benchmark speaker that many speaker designers, kept in the back of their workshop, so they would have a reference point a benchmark to aim for .... (in the midrange of course - pretty much any of their competitors did better at bass and high extension!) - but yes, they too were always considered a High Fidelity speaker.

 

[levimax]

It's exactly a distortion - the change of phase with frequency which distorts the time waveform. Its most audible at low frequencies, but one cannot ignore the transfer function of the room at these low (bass) frequencies.

Agree, should have used "type" instead of "kind" to be more clear.

 

[bmc0]

What comes out of the port is time-delayed [...] hence, distortion.

Time delay is a linear distortion, yes. "Distortion" without qualifiers usually means nonlinear distortion.

A bass reflex system is approximately minimum phase, so not much different than, say, a sealed box plus a 2nd-order highpass fliter. Both have a 4th-order highpass characteristic and will exhibit similar time-domain response if their magnitude responses are similar.

 

[dlaloum]

Time delay is a linear distortion, yes. "Distortion" without qualifiers usually means nonlinear distortion.

A bass reflex system is approximately minimum phase, so not much different than, say, a sealed box plus a 2nd-order highpass fliter. Both have a 4th-order highpass characteristic and will exhibit similar time-domain response if their magnitude responses are similar.

Which conveniently is correctible by DSP rather easily (minimum phase) - depends on how "approximate" it is!

However as a general rule, sealed (true sealed... not just a plug in a port) designs tend to be lower THD, with the negative being lower SPL to go with it...
I don't believe that THD is mostly port related.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Or am I wrong in that misguided belief?

If you have a Steinway technician install and tune your piano they do adjust the bass hammers to even out the sound in room by modifying the hardness of hammer felt with spiked hammers or files.
Other instruments no afaik.
We have a model B in our music room which has had daily use for the last 35 years. Also Violin, Viola, Cello, Cornet and tenor horn which each play with the characteristic timbre of the instrument and musician.

 

[Keith_W]

A bass reflex system is approximately minimum phase, so not much different than, say, a sealed box plus a 2nd-order highpass fliter. Both have a 4th-order highpass characteristic and will exhibit similar time-domain response if their magnitude responses are similar.

The key word is "approximately" minimum phase. In a bass reflex system, the total output is the summation of the output of the port and the driver. In a crossover, the output is the convolution of the response of the electrical XO and the driver. Convolution is a multiplication operation.

The difference is that a zero multiplied by a nonzero is zero. But a zero added to a nonzero is nonzero. So a minphase system convolved with a minphase system always results in a minphase response. But addition - not always. This means that you may or may not be able to successfully invert the response.

 

[Hear Here]

This is how I blew out the woofer on my three way. Running it too loudly on bass heavy content. It wasn't even that loud!

Possibly more likely than high volume per se, the amp at high output may have been distorted and this could be the bigger cause of driver blowing. Relatively small bass driver cones have to work harder than large ones and this is another possible cause of driver damage.

 

[Willem]

You want to hear midrange magic, voices that are "real" and can give the impression of being in the room with you, listen to a vintage pair of Quad ESL57's... limited bass, limited highs, but a totally magical midrange, pretty much unmatched by anything else - a benchmark speaker that many speaker designers, kept in the back of their workshop, so they would have a reference point a benchmark to aim for .... (in the midrange of course - pretty much any of their competitors did better at bass and high extension!) - but yes, they too were always considered a High Fidelity speaker.

I still have them, but also the 2805s (with subs). Yes their midrange was uncanny, but the same applies to their modern descendents.

 

[Willem]

Pre-DSP (15+ years ago) I ran Quad 63's and 989's.... I could never get them to properly integrate with subs - tried a few times...

Ultimately, WAF issues drove them out to be replaced by much more compact, WAF friendly, Gallo speakers.

Having DSP I am sure is a major enabler here!

The problem with Quad's and subs is that as dipoles the main speakers do not suffer as much from room modes, so the contrast with ordinary subs that do excite room modes is clearly audible. I tried to use a good subwoofer that way, and the result was deeply disappointing. Adding dsp room equalization for the sub was a revelation: suddenly integration was near perfect, and sub and Quads sounded as one speaker.

 

[Ktacos]

Wish I could run my subs. My last desktop was handling the crossover spoofing the 5.1 surround output but that thing died and good dsp units aren't really affordable atm. One day I'll get them going again.

I can update this, I have subs again and my word I don't know how people live without them. All the impact and depth are back, at any SPL.

 

[Mort]

Possibly more likely than high volume per se, the amp at high output may have been distorted and this could be the bigger cause of driver blowing. Relatively small bass driver cones have to work harder than large ones and this is another possible cause of driver damage.

Lol wut

 

[bungle]

It is interesting that solutions like W371 (https://www.genelec.fi/w371a) are not more common. I think that looks more a problem solver in home/livingroom environment compared to subwoofers. Especially because you can with that start to crossover much higher than with a normal subwoofer. Very common to have problems between 100 Hz and 200 Hz in home environment. Yes, a big expensive floor standing speakers may provide something like that as well (8381 and similar). And yes, W371 is expensive as well. And is even more difficult to fit to room than the subs. A smaller W371 could be interesting too.

 

[gwing]

Possibly more likely than high volume per se, the amp at high output may have been distorted and this could be the bigger cause of driver blowing. Relatively small bass driver cones have to work harder than large ones and this is another possible cause of driver damage.

I'm struggling to think why distortion would be likely to blow a bass unit. When we get distortion, typically from clipping when the amp is overdriven, that produces higher harmonics of the actual signal thus driving tweeters to excess but why would that damage the bass units?

Occam's razor suggests it is indeed likely to be just the bass unit being driven to excess, which could easily happen if you have a powerful amp and eq trying to get more out of it than it can deliver.

 

[Mort]

I'm struggling to think why distortion would be likely to blow a bass unit. When we get distortion, typically from clipping when overdriven, that produces higher harmonics of the actual signal thus driving tweeters to excess but why would that damage the bass units?

Occam's razor suggests it is indeed likely just the bass unit being driven to excess, which could easily happen if you have a powerful amp and eq trying to get more out of it than it can deliver.

Yes, Occam's razor.

 

[Hear Here]

Lol wut

Amplifier clipping was the expression I was looking for that may have been more destructive to the driver than the volume alone. See:

"Because the clipped waveform has more area underneath it than the smaller unclipped waveform, the amplifier produces more power than its rated (sine wave) output when it is clipping. This extra power can damage the loudspeaker. It may cause damage to the amplifier's power supply or simply blow a fuse."

 

[gwing]

Amplifier clipping was the expression I was looking for that may have been more destructive to the driver than the volume alone. See:

"Because the clipped waveform has more area underneath it than the smaller unclipped waveform, the amplifier produces more power than its rated (sine wave) output when it is clipping. This extra power can damage the loudspeaker. It may cause damage to the amplifier's power supply or simply blow a fuse."

Could you attribute the quote please?

 

[Hear Here]

Could you attribute the quote please?

Wikipedia, but it's surely a well-known problem if amps are asked to deliver more power they are than designed to do