How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[FrantzM]

Choose the right speakers to suit the small room. Subs are likely to make music uncomfortable to listen to in small rooms, but carefully chosen mains should not.

I sincerely believe that you need to refrain from posting inaccuracies.
High Fidelity is the accurate reproduction of the full audible spectrum. For most people on this forum that would be between 20 Hz and 15 KHz ... We lose our sensitivity to the treble but retain it in the bass. Fact, not an opinion.

A study measuring low-frequency hearing thresholds in people over 60 showed that, on average, older adults exhibited only about a 10 dB loss in the low-frequency range compared to younger adults—indicating that low-frequency sensitivity remains relatively intact

Source: Effect of Ageing on Hearing Thresholds in the Low Frequency Region*

We must hear the bass ,else it is almost hi-Fi ...
Now concerning that thing about the "carefully chosen" mains... Are you trying to say that in a small room it is best to chose main speakers that are deficient in the lows? Because if your mains are "full range", they will exacerbate the exact same room modes as any subwoofers... That again is a fact.
So in your opinion, small room = choose bass-limited mains...Perhaps you could go for a midrange only speaker system

 

[FrantzM]

A lot to say about speakers going down low ... At what SPL , at the listening postion? AN IEM goes low at serious SPL at tyour ear canal .. Would you qulaify an IEM as a full range if you were to use it as a loudspeakers? No

Same with the "My main reproduces 30 Hz"... At what level aka SPL?

 

[bmc0]

And many good Halls have adjustable acoustic treatments that can be lowered or raised (or installed / removed) depending on how "treated" the performer wants it...

Additionally, lots of halls employ electronic means of modifying/augmenting reverberation (DSP?!? ).

 

[Mort]

A lot to say about speakers going down low ... At what SPL , at the listening postion? AN IEM goes low at serious SPL at tyour ear canal .. Would you qulaify an IEM as a full range if you were to use it as a loudspeakers? No

Same with the "My main reproduces 30 Hz"... At what level aka SPL?

This is how I blew out the woofer on my three way. Running it too loudly on bass heavy content. It wasn't even that loud!

 

[Hear Here]

High Fidelity is the accurate reproduction of the full audible spectrum.

With respect, who says? Look at specs of loudspeaker offered as "hi-fi" and you'll see that many can't reproduce frequencies below about 40 Hz. Are they therefore not hi-fi speakers? Tell that to KEF, B&W and most brands that offers these non-full-range (mainly stand-mount) speakers.

 

[levimax]

Running it too loudly on bass heavy content. It wasn't even that loud!

The threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is ~80 dB and 100 dB at 20 Hz is not loud at all even though it takes a capable system to reproduce it. Even if you have a sub that can play 120 dB @ 20 Hz and the source material has content below 30 Hz you aren't going to hear it unless you are listening at quite loud levels.

 

[ZolaIII]

@FrantzM it can be done to sound deacent on fixed SPL. Not controled and scaling of course. That's why you need sub's with pretty much any speakers. It's not about first possible lowest note it's to how we hear and how sound waves travel. Time and space. So you modulate amplitude where it needs time correction. There is no flat bass, it is almost like that but at 85/88 dB SPL mono/stereo (white noise calibration point) as you go down regarding SPL you need more to compensate for the feal of presence. We can ramp this up to amplitude sharp increase in sub bass which no subwoofer can follow. Again having good decay times is important and rather hard to obtain in a small box (room). If they are bad ringing will mask what's under. Then there is peek from the sub's and that you need to autended so that it's harmonics stay under the rest of signal as well and here DSP really shines as you can model it to the room response and filtering you can't with pasive one's including sharp self into the driver fundamental (basically where it says no).
Sholder frequency for ELC is 105 Hz so this introduces need be that sub crossover is set to 120 Hz and that introduces sub to each chenel and close to it (2.2). Waves are directional above 45 Hz full summing standing ones (+6 dB) and gradual down to 75 Hz to half. It's not about stereo bass and such nonsense, it's about letting it sum up naturally or to the material (as mixed) and more importantly having response in order especially when boost is significant there (lower program SPL to the normal speach levels - 60 dB) still stopping it's propagation regarding harmonics (that's why crossovers above where it starts).
Real peeks (defining out standing one's) you will rarely find in almost any mixed materials below 30 Hz (closer 32~35). And I mean gernes that emphasise it. Next peak session is main bass (drums and such) so having them separated on different drivers has it's own benefits and a same on that they don't bleed in any way to low mids best done with crossover of course three way mains tho even with deacent 6.5" or more two ways situations will improve a lot when you cross them out so high stressing them down on peek they can give (relaxing headroom and or improving THD).

 

[FrantzM]

The threshold of hearing at 20 Hz is ~80 dB and 100 dB at 20 Hz is not loud at all even though it takes a capable system to reproduce it. Even if you have a sub that can play 120 dB @ 20 Hz and the source material has content below 30 Hz you aren't going to hear it unless you are listening at quite loud levels.

Well this is exactly where subwoofers show their mien and usefulness ... In all these discussions, Fletcher-Munson is conveniently side stepped ...

I am repeating it for one more time ...
Main capable of 30 Hz at 100 dB at 2 meters tend to be expensive and, yes, unusual. if they "do", 30 Hz the THD can be quite substantial.. 30 even 40% is usual...!! Yes!.. It is (I am repeating myself to death here but am too lazy to point to my posts on the subject, Subwoofer, even cheap ones "do" 100 dB at 2 meters with no sweat, This is not easy for most full range to "do" 30 Hz at 2 meters at >100 dB...
Someone reminded me that relieving the mains from the low bass repoduciton, tend to reduce the overall THD from the main resulting in therm, playing cleaner.. and, yes, audibly better.


You make sure that part of the spectrum (the low bass anything under 80 Hz) is left to the sub.. properly DSP-ed and EQ-ed and using some interesting curves (wink to Harman-Toole as an exemple) and you kay the foundations of the music.. It seems that I am repeating this to death..
And these days the list of music pieces with serious low bass content is loooooooooong
To have an idea go to this Thread : BASSS!

Hopefully, your subwoofer-less speaker-based system, is up to par, else, you will hear ...not much . then again, you could simply acquire the <$20 Truthear GATE IEM... perhaps it will let you know that your, until then, flat-to-30 Hz-speakers, cannot play 30 Hz at any meaningful levels

 

[Adis]

That is likely doomed to failure. As I say, get research done (recommendations from others, reviews from reputable sources, showroom demos, etc) to help draw up a short list, then arrange home demos?

Isn't the main object to find a speaker that gives you pleasere when playing music? If so, that's really all that matters, because if it sounds good (as similar as possible to the live performance you heard at the concert hall last week), then it will be reasonably accurate.

No, the main objective is to find a speaker that reveals what is on the recording. Then if "pleasure" is absent, or lacking, I discard the recording, not the speaker.

 

[Hear Here]

Most orchestral tuba players I know expressly consider the match between the instruments they choose and their regular performance space. Even at my level, I have several instruments considered to be top-shelf professional instruments. One of them is highly suited to resonant concert halls, and will create a tremendous broad and deep presence in a live performance space. The other has enormous projection capability that really punches the sound out in a relatively dead hall.

Thank you for the insight into your choice of instrument to suit the venue you are playing in - very interesting. This is exactly akin to my claim that the speakers must be carefully chosen to suit the room in which they are installed. Type of speaker is the foremost consideration (horns suit my difficult room, electrostatics sadly don't), but this is not akin to using DSP.

With your musical instruments, you select the one to suit the venue, but you can't adjust its sound further to compensate for room acoustics to achieve perfectly flat response at the listener's seat. That could only be achieved by using a microphone to measure, then DSP to adjust the signal and then to transmit the adjusted sound to the audience - through loudspeakers. What an abominable thought! Let's accept the source sound reproduced by the tuba, violin, flute, or loudspeaker that has been carefully selected as suitable for the space in which it will be playing and be happy with the pleasure it gives the listener.

 

[theREALdotnet]

Same with the "My main reproduces 30 Hz"... At what level aka SPL?

And at what level of distortion?

BTW, what comes out of a bass reflex port is by definition distortion.

 

[bmc0]

BTW, what comes out of a bass reflex port is by definition distortion.

Interesting assertion considering that there's often a local minimum in the nonlinear distortion near the tuning frequency. So what kind of distortion is it, in your view?

 

[theREALdotnet]

Interesting assertion considering that there's often a local minimum in the nonlinear distortion near the tuning frequency. So what kind of distortion is it, in your view?

What comes out of the port is time-delayed with respect to the signal coming from the woofer and tweeter. It is correlated with the signal, but not the signal itself, hence, distortion.

 

[kyuu]

What comes out of the port is time-delayed with respect to the signal coming from the woofer and tweeter. It is correlated with the signal, but not the signal itself, hence, distortion.

Is there anyone else who defines a waveform that is merely delayed in time but otherwise unaltered as being distorted? That's typically just called "delay".

 

[levimax]

Is there anyone else who defines a waveform that is merely delayed in time but otherwise unaltered as being distorted? That's typically just called "delay".

Group Delay is a kind of distortion.

 

[MattHooper]

For those of you who think that just because you have full range main speakers so you don't need subwoofers, you are wrong because:

1. Adding subwoofers will smooth out the bass response since you have more bass sources in the room;

2. It sounds different. My speakers are capable of going flat down to 20Hz. I did an experiment where I equalized the main speakers alone down to 20Hz. And I made another filter where the mains + subs play together and equalized to the same target curve. I made sure the filters were level matched in DSP, and proceeded to listen. The version with the subwoofer sounds noticeably different. It has way more power and authority without sounding unbalanced and tubby. It's something you have to experience to understand.

And those of you who think you don't need subwoofers because your music does not contain any bass, you are also wrong. Nearly ALL music has bass, even a violin solo. If you don't believe me, take a look at this:

View attachment 496292

That's a recording of Julia Fischer's Bach Violin Sonatas. See the bass in the spectrogram? That's concert hall ambience. If I were to turn off my subwoofers, the sense of spaciousness collapses noticeably. Granted there is no music down there in this particular recording, but there is still information to be reproduced.

View attachment 496294

Those of you who have heard a pipe organ will know that it is an overwhelming experience. Even when the SPL is reasonable, the air in your chest vibrates and you can feel the sound. If you don't have subwoofers, forget it - you're not getting that sensation at home.

Not to contest some of those points, but just to mention:

Some of us have used subwoofers (and DSP) before so we know the difference between what we are missing or not. “Needing” subwoofers is of course a subjective call ultimately. I find that I did not “need” subwoofers in order to get the majority of the musical message in content in most recordings that I listen to. Sometimes the subwoofers added something I found meaningful, plenty of times I could take or leave it, and sometimes I preferred to leave it.
Ultimately preferred my floor standing speakers without subwoofers.

 

[BJL]

Not to contest some of those points, but just to mention:

Some of us have used subwoofers (and DSP) before so we know the difference between what we are missing or not. “Needing” subwoofers is of course a subjective call ultimately. I find that I did not “need” subwoofers in order to get the majority of the musical message in content in most recordings that I listen to. Sometimes the subwoofers added something I found meaningful, plenty of times I could take or leave it, and sometimes I preferred to leave it.
Ultimately preferred my floor standing speakers without subwoofers.

I thoroughly agree with @MattHooper and do not use bass management, my floor standing speakers are sufficient for the music that I listen to. I do have a subwoofer however, and that is because many (though not all) multichannel music recordings have a dedicated LFE channel. I presume in most cases (and know for a fact in certain recordings having spoken with the producer) that there are artistic reasons for inclusion of the LFE channel and therefore reproduce it at home. And of course most cinema/tv have an LFE channel (though again, not all.)

But I do find that a sub detracts in other contexts, such as stereo recordings, quad, and other multichannel where the LFE has been omitted.

 

[Flaesh]

Was this link in this thread? https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_subwooferkicktest.php

 

[dlaloum]

For those of you who think that just because you have full range main speakers so you don't need subwoofers, you are wrong because:

1. Adding subwoofers will smooth out the bass response since you have more bass sources in the room;

Counter argument - having 4 or 6 full range speakers in your setup (ie: the base layer of a surround setup) provides you with 4 or 6 sources of bass, resulting in much more even response through the room...

2. It sounds different. My speakers are capable of going flat down to 20Hz. I did an experiment where I equalized the main speakers alone down to 20Hz. And I made another filter where the mains + subs play together and equalized to the same target curve. I made sure the filters were level matched in DSP, and proceeded to listen. The version with the subwoofer sounds noticeably different. It has way more power and authority without sounding unbalanced and tubby. It's something you have to experience to understand.

So in objective measurement terms - are we talking about peak SPL capabilities? (that is my interpretation of what you are saying)

The interesting thing about using Dirac ART for its bass management, alongside full range speakers, is that the low frequency peak SPL capability becomes the sum of the bass capable speakers (obviously within their frequency range! - which may be short of 20Hz)

Hence even if the bass capability of a single speaker might fall short of the peak demands, having four speakers, should boost peak capacity by around 6db (or the equivalent multiplying amp power by 4...)

Those of you who have heard a pipe organ will know that it is an overwhelming experience. Even when the SPL is reasonable, the air in your chest vibrates and you can feel the sound. If you don't have subwoofers, forget it - you're not getting that sensation at home.

lol - I am not even going to try to replicate a pipe organ at home....

Having said that - switching from a Dirac Live setup with 4 full range base layer speakers (fronts down to 24Hz and surrounds down to 35Hz - all at -3db, and set up for "double bass" so LFE is also reproduced by full range speakers), to my first experiments with Dirac ART... I am finding that I have moved from a Target curve with +4db in the bass to -3db at the high extreme, to a target curve with +0db (ie: flat) in the bass, and -3db in the highs.

As you can tell I am by no means a bass head!!

Yes I do have a single sub in the setup... (24Hz -3db)

Sound is very even across the listening space, listening to stereo (but with all "support" active) - Imaging is good, midrange is very good... not sure whether it is better than the previous Dirac Live config - I am not experiencing a massive improvement in the bass - but the overall soundstage has expanded.

(keeping in mind this is my first try with Dirac ART... and I was time constrained by family "space invaders" cutting short my tweaking time)

In Movies, right now I am not hearing a substantive difference in my ART setup, vs my previous DL setup...
In Stereo Music - I feel like there is an expansiveness to the soundstage that wasn't present before

(My listening room is a very large open living/dining/kitchen with a vaulted/cathedral ceiling - so it tends not to suffer from major bass node issues... less for ART to fix?)

 

[dlaloum]

My main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats in a 70 sq m room. They go down to 37 Hz, below which they fall off as from a cliff. The three subs (equalized with MSO) that I added make a real difference.

Pre-DSP (15+ years ago) I ran Quad 63's and 989's.... I could never get them to properly integrate with subs - tried a few times...

Ultimately, WAF issues drove them out to be replaced by much more compact, WAF friendly, Gallo speakers.

Having DSP I am sure is a major enabler here!