The musicians' instruments are not changed according to venue. That's my point - they are not DSP'd, neither should they be, and the sound will vary subtly at different venues and from different listening positions.
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How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....
- Thread starter Jaxjax
- Start date
That will very much depend on your main speakers. You say yours go down flat to 20 Hz. I wonder. Flat means 0 dB as I understand it and most speaker specs state lowest frequency at -3 or -6 dB. What are your main speakers that deliver 20 Hz flat?
I ask because my speakers offer the same chest-vibrating effect you describe when playing grand organ music, and adding my two subs that each have twin 12" drivers makes bugger all difference. My main speakers each have twin 12" drivers so I'm already enjoying bass from 4 big drivers - and an additional 4 sub drivers makes no noticeable difference, although they may be helping to iron out room modes..
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Choose the right speakers to suit the small room. Subs are likely to make music uncomfortable to listen to in small rooms, but carefully chosen mains should not.
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Here's a couple of albums that have not been mentioned before that offer plenty of deep bass. They need to be played robustly on systems with big bass drivers - in mains preferably, otherwise subs with 12+" drivers
2WEI's album "Sequels" or one of their other albums.
Another artist who enjoys plenty of impressive bass in her music is Ruelle. Try her "Madness" album - Game of Survival, etc. Again it needs a generous dollop of volume!
Please report back!
2WEI's album "Sequels" or one of their other albums.
Another artist who enjoys plenty of impressive bass in her music is Ruelle. Try her "Madness" album - Game of Survival, etc. Again it needs a generous dollop of volume!
Please report back!
So you agree there's no solution other than subs and DRC or settle for speakers with no bass?
Have you never had a listen to well integrated subwoofers in a small room? Usually there's at least one such system at shows, in a hotel room which are usually not much larger than 10 x 14. It can work. It's not a task I would personally want to take on which is why I bought a house with a large room. But people do get it to work well.
No
Adis
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How do you calculate the speaker rightness, Hertz per square meter or per foot? Per cubic?
Keith_W
Master Contributor
A pair of modified Acapella High Violons. I removed the woofers it came with and replaced it with a locally manufactured woofer.
Old woofer on the left, new woofer on the right.
And here we have a comparison of a mono recording to show overall bass response. In pink is L+R main speakers playing together, in black we have L+R mains + 2 subs. You can see that there is a touch more bass in the filter with no subs, but that's balanced by the deeper dips. Also note the dips aren't that bad despite appearances, check out the vertical scale. I have zoomed way in so that you can examine the difference. Note that I deliberately put a subsonic filter in there to avoid rattling my house down - so although I CAN go to below 20Hz, I don't. I need a more solidly constructed house.
You would think that the two SHOULD sound the same, but they don't. The black recording (with the subwoofers) has way more power and chest thump.
Thanks for the information. Like myself, you have chosen horn speakers (apart from the bass of course) and I'm sure they sound great. I can find little info on the Violons, but Spereophile reviewed and measured the bigger Violoncello back in 2001 when I bought my first pair of Avantgarde speakers.. This was John Atkinson's plot
I'm no expert but your figures appear quite different from JA's. Similarly I've not found a review with reliable measurements for my own speakers, but on paper anyway, the bass in mine shoud be as full and deep as yours or maybe more so with their twin 12" drivers fed by 1000 watts. I'm sure we can both enjoy great music with or without subs. In my case, the subs can be switched off with no loss of bass quality or depth, so I'm likely to sell them soon. If I get close to the subs, they are obviously producing lots of air movement but it adds nothing at the listening position - the mains provide all that's needed to cause concern that neighbours may come calling!
Keith_W
Master Contributor
Yep. JA measured a different speaker. And I did tell you that my speaker was modified. It has a different driver in it, one that is capable of going down to 20Hz.
ZolaIII
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Well that it has minus that is equal to first room fundamental peek in db on the same spot. It can work and give enough extension for example with let's say typical mid size bookshelf's going down to 40 Hz - 8 dB in 4 m long room where peek is approximately same amplitude. to get them to 0 dB. Similar as port works (but more persistent). You can use REW room simulator to see where fundamental is and pick speakers that way. Still not to use digital tools today is not a very good idea.
@Mart68 and use accustic treatment, there is a reason why I said two rows of accustic certains and depth of 30 cm as that's enough to get limited effect in two bothom octaves. It won't correct it just make it less of the problem and lower amplitude amount of fundamental. It does more for everything above that and not something you can't imagine in the room (curtains) or something that would alter looks or functionality much.
So again, you used ears. You don't know what the 'filtering' (which could use a bit more description) did to the sound at the MLP, in objective before/after terms.
He's certainly not a crusader against DSP...or simple EQ adjustment.
No violin will create frequencies below 200 Hz. Doesn't it make you wonder if the spectrogram has anything to do with the recording? Likewise, no pipe organ will create a chest thump.
I used to have Genelec 8050 + 7070 and MiniDSP HTx with Dirac. That setup I could get down to 10-15 hz. Now I have 2xS360 and I get around 30-35 Hz. I have bad room modes (a couple of dips) that I have tried to deal with placement/sub/absorption and dirac and now glm or even both glm and dirac (small room issues). I tend to currently get subjectively best results with glm. I do get nicer FR with Dirac, but I feel that it does too much (somewhat compresses) and glm feels more conservative in its changes. It is definitely easier without sub. I am not totally happy, but fixing the room is a long journey and needs some wife acceptance as well. I can not fit subwoofer anymore, perhaps a pair of smaller ones, but I am also ok with 30-35 Hz.
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Yeah, but I don't play it
("don't" = "can't" in case that wasn't clear.) And it definitely has that double-pedal C, so it's not merely alleged. The "alleged" part is that performers play it using conventional technique. Most performers flutter-tongue the note, which gives the impression of a lower note, but only by implication inferred from higher harmonics.Even with a standard buzz, tuba sound is made by a series of pulses that are not at all even close to resembling the climb of a sine wave. Only the harmonic resonance of the instrument and the impedance matching of the bell attenuates a lot of the high-frequency content, and resonates the low-frequency content of the buzz to convert the "strawberry" (code for "fart sound") into a musical tone. In the case of the double-pedal C in the Kraft, the instrument is unable to resonate the 16-Hz fundamental--it's only 16 feet of conical tubing (but with a lot of subtleties in the length caused by the change in atmospheric pressure over the length of the conical bore). It will resonate at 32 Hz, which is the open fundamental of the bugle, plus a substantial range of harmonic overtones spread over about 2-1/2 octaves, depending on how loudly the performer is playing. Loud playing increases the harmonic content--it's one clue that the player is playing loudly even when the difference in SPL isn't that much.
I am, however, thinking of a pedal C in Prokofiev plus many examples of pedal C's and Bb's (at 28 Hz) in brass-band literature, which is a branch of the repertoire I have never explored, being generally allergic to reading transposed music in the G clef. Holst asks for a low D here and there. Even those are most uncommon. In my performance experience, I've only been asked once to play a note below a low Eb, five ledger lines below the F clef, and that wasn't notated in the music (I complied). Band music does occasionally invite the performer to play a concluding chord down the octave from a low C, and there are lots of tuba players that do so without the invitation, but in those cases I contribute much more by sticking with the notation as written. This has become more difficult for me as I have aged and become afflicted by "benign" essential tremor. Most music for tuba contents itself with notes down to that low Eb, E, or F.
Rick "doubting any actual sine wave content below 32 Hz with the 16-Hz double pedal C in the Kraft" Denney
Also simplistic. Most orchestral tuba players I know expressly consider the match between the instruments they choose and their regular performance space. Even at my level, I have several instruments considered to be top-shelf professional instruments. One of them is highly suited to resonant concert halls, and will create a tremendous broad and deep presence in a live performance space. The other has enormous projection capability that really punches the sound out in a relatively dead hall. I was attracted to the second instrument because my group frequently plays in high-school auditoriums that are optimized for speech and are therefore dead, deader, deadest for music. Add to that the lack of shells, and my big Holton grand orchestral tuba--the current standard for most orchestral repertoire by American performers--ended up edifying the curtains more than the audience. I got tired of feeling like I had to blow my brains out to get "out front". My large Hirsbrunner kaisertuba has the punch to get off those stages with real power and a lot less effort on my part.
And when I choose which of three choices for a brass quintet gig, the performance space is a prime determinant. We might be playing outside, or we might be playing in a reverberant church. My choice is strongly influenced by that consideration.
I will be performing with a smaller ensemble down in Texas in the lead-up to Christmas, and that will take place outdoors. I'm bringing an instrument that is not only easy to hold and play while standing (a very serious consideration), but that also makes a sound that is round and broad moreso than loud, to fill in some effect of resonance that might normally be provided by the performance space.
I want a sound system that reveals those choices rather than just making the bass loud. A ringing room mode that can't be corrected with treatments (and damping a reflection under 100 Hz with a wall covering isn't as easy as some seem to think) will utterly overwhelm those subtleties, even if they are present in the recording. If I can't damp them with wall coverings--which is frequently the lived reality--I can damp them with appropriate equalization. If you choose not to do that, then fine, but there's stuff I want to hear that the ringing will mask.
Rick "you do you" Denney
I wouldn't take my speakers with me into that smaller room, although I have often used big speakers in small rooms with good results. If a sub with a 10" driver works in a smaller room, then by fairly obvious guesswork, main speakers with 10" bass drivers will also sound good and will offer equally impressive bass.
If I was in the position of such a move, I'd do a lot of research to draw up a short list of 3 or 4 possible speakers and arrange home demos. I've made mistakes in the past buying speakers that have not suited my room (ATC Active 50s in my previous flat and Martin Logan 13As in my present one), so I know only too well that a poorly-chosen speaker (specifically type of speaker) will never sound good in a given room, however well they may measure, while others excel.
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That is likely doomed to failure. As I say, get research done (recommendations from others, reviews from reputable sources, showroom demos, etc) to help draw up a short list, then arrange home demos?
Isn't the main object to find a speaker that gives you pleasere when playing music? If so, that's really all that matters, because if it sounds good (as similar as possible to the live performance you heard at the concert hall last week), then it will be reasonably accurate.
I have a couple of lovely, matched mahogany veneer Castle Howard S2 speakers in my main setup and they go down to 32 Hz (I'm not sure of their deviation from flat at this frequency). I have honestly never felt the need for a sub with these beauties.
The attached picture of a mahogany pair (minus their black fabric grilles) is not of my own pair but this picture provides a good indication of their size and weight (26 kg each). Internally they feature a quarter wave transmission line design.
The real beast in the Castle range was the model above which was the Castle Winchester. Mine were made in Skipton in Yorkshire back in the 90s but I believe Castle speakers are now made in China and are no longer British owned.
The attached picture of a mahogany pair (minus their black fabric grilles) is not of my own pair but this picture provides a good indication of their size and weight (26 kg each). Internally they feature a quarter wave transmission line design.
The real beast in the Castle range was the model above which was the Castle Winchester. Mine were made in Skipton in Yorkshire back in the 90s but I believe Castle speakers are now made in China and are no longer British owned.
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