How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[Mort]

makes me wish my system had a bit *less* bass response

On the contrary I do run room correction and wouldn't be without it now.
It isn't only subs that should have the benefit of electronic response control .

I only wondered because you can dial back the bass response in your system with DSP. DSP does many things, yes.

 

[goat76]

By 'musically meaningful' I wasn't intending to do more than make a distinction between musical notes deliberately played as part of the music and unwanted background noises that might regrettably be on the recording but which shouldn't be there. I'll leave noises that are intentionally there but are not notes, such as explosions and cannon fire, in a convenient grey area.

But as you ask for an example try 'Home' (or 'Rise' or other tracks on her album 'Nameless') by Dominique Fils-Aime as a good example of something I might listen to and which has a bit of bass. The track 'unstated' on that album makes me wish my system had a bit *less* bass response than it does but you have to take the music as it comes.

There is a significant amount of deep bass all down to 30 Hz in that track 'Home', and that is definitely not unintentional, as you can clearly see that they put the high-pass filter right under that point.

Do you use any EQ in your system?
I suspect that your wish for less bass may be caused by room modes, and maybe not just a preference for you.

 

[dlaloum]

Hi

The following comes from an ardent subwoofer user: 2 subwoofers in opposite corner in my (small) room.. I will add a 3rd (rather potent one) soon, but ordering things from abroads is not simple where I live

Subwoofers always add a considerable level of complexity to an audio system; a few of the issues that need to be addressed:

• Integration (easier said, than done) of the mains with the (multiple) subwoofers.
  you need to process the signal going to the subs and, often, the mains as in equalizing and , yes, applying delay , thus manipulating the phase to the ensemble of mains and subs.
• Often an equalized to flat response, from the subs, could introduce. other audible artifacts such as ringing... FR is nice and so smooth and so flat ... but the sound is not so good...
• It seems that bass directionality is a thing, for my part I have been satisfied with mono bass under 80 Hz.. leaving the directional clues to the mains or surround reproducing anything >80 Hz.
• The Audio system become more complex with more boxes and require a lot of care and measurements ...
  And you need to understand and be able to interpret these measurements. Not easy believe me

I get it, now (wasn't getting it before): Subwoofers make things more difficult for most audiophiles: It is not a simple as dropping subs , fire REW ,then MSO and be happy.. . It is more complicated and require understanding and, yes, reiteration as in You will not get right the very first time ... nor the second, nor the third ...

• But the hobby was never simple anyway: There are no systems that you just acquire drop in your room and ... results are great! Except in the case of those ridiculously good and inexpensive IEM ... , even those, may require that you experiment with different tips..
• The complexity come from what we are trying to achieve: have soundwaves reach our ears in such a way that it resembles what was/is on the medium... In a space that shall (could?) change the soundwaves coming out of the transducers, substantially, often to the point of unrecognizability ...
• And Bass, from many studies account for more than 30% of what people deem to be good hifi.
• and often needs to be reproduced at levels that are to be substantially higher than those from the rest of the spectrum ...
• and you need to make sure that all those boxes sound like one, or at the very least, that the sound seems to emanate from the same point/place as the rest of the spectrum ...

Nope! Being an audiophile, never was an easy hobby.
...

Science and experience have shown us that:

• The best position for the bass transducers, for a smooth FR in the region, is not the same as that for the mains speakers.
• And that speakers that are full range tend to be big and expensive. Still despite being full range the positon/location that they force upon you is not the best for bass reproduction.. ( see above).
• That it is relatively trivial for commercially available subwoofer s, to reproduce with substantial vigor ( aka SPL ) frequencies from 30 to 200 Hz. All you need is a box with an amp and a decent driver .. not the complex thing that full range enclosure is per nature ...
• That we now have serious computing power in relatively inexpensive boxes, say a Raspbery Pi at $60 or an old PC for <$100 on eBay
• That there exist a few software some of these free that could help a lot ... REW, MSO.. etc
• That as the end, we (most here) seem to be a group of people that require accurate audio reproduction on our rooms .. THus us posting about our experiences all the time and discussing subwoofers and amplifiers and SAC those 2 last things, completely solved problems, yet we discuss things as irrelevant and entirely inaudible as the ESS hump ...

Based on the above, it is clear that subwoofers are necessary to achieve full FR, accurate reproduction in most rooms, even if our main speakers are Full range.

I hasten to add that Subwoofers are necessary, not Sufficient

I note that low distortion in the bass register is not mentioned among your points!
Although economical high SPL subs are now available, economical high SPL low distortion subs are far less so...

 

[Hear Here]

Have you verified that your system is optimized by any means other than your ears?

And you misunderstand multichannel. If anything, a multi-speaker system is more forgiving of sonic flaws than a two-channel rig. (A single-speaker rig is the least forgiving).

Verified by the opinions of 5 audio-savvy visitors recently at blind-testing sessions when 4 out of 5 prefered the non-filtered sound, as well as other casual visitors. I'll be doing REW checks soon too.

Setting up 2 identical matched main speakers is easier than setting up those 2 speakers plus a mis-matched sub or two. They all need careful selection (to suit the room's acoustic) and careful setting up.

Frankly it matters less to me if there's a little inaccuracy in measured response at the listening position if I can avoid an extra processor in the signal path. Do musicians adjust adjust their instrument's output to pander to each concert hall's acoustic? No, of course they don't (apart from standard tuning generally to adjust for changes in temperature), and will sound subtly different in each hall and in each seat in the same hall. That's what music is all about – the thrill of the performance, not fiddling around to make a PC screen happy. Or am I wrong in that misguided belief?

 

[Hear Here]

For as long as I have owned a hifi system I have run at least one subwoofer. Even added a second sub, and DSP. I always had a nagging feeling that it wasn't properly integrated. Either the tiny knobs were getting hit when dusting/cleaning the tops of the subs, or what sounded good at one SPL wouldn't sound good with another (gain matching issues?), I just never felt like I could get it right. Plus I had two subwoofers being powered 24/7. Finally I had the opportunity to audition and purchase at an amazing used price a pair of Revel F206 for the purpose of eliminating the M106 w/ subs, and I am never going back to subs again. Much better for my purpose and taste to just run full-range speakers that will respond better to EQ.

At last, another music lover who has seen the light. Buy quality kit after careful consideration of suitable type and model to suit the room and keep things simple. I'm sure your Revels sound great.

 

[Mort]

At last, another music lover who has seen the light. Buy quality kit after careful consideration of suitable type and model to suit the room and keep things simple.

He's less sanctimonious but the leader of this site shares your appreciation for a full range no sub 2ch system.

 

[Chanur]

Just bought some BMR Towers for my new fronts. Will be a while before I bother to get a new subwoofer for movies.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Rick "who plays an instrument for which music has been composed down to about 32 Hz" Denney

William Kraft's "Encounters II" allegedly has a 16 Hz double pedal C...

 

[bmc0]

Do musicians adjust adjust their instrument's output to pander to each concert hall's acoustic? No, of course they don't

Good musicians absolutely do adjust their playing to suit different halls.

 

[goat76]

Verified by the opinions of 5 audio-savvy visitors recently at blind-testing sessions when 4 out of 5 prefered the non-filtered sound, as well as other casual visitors. I'll be doing REW checks soon too.

That doesn't tell us much without any further information on what those Dirac EQ filters looked like. Were the filters applied to the full range frequency response, or were they limited to the bass frequency range? Have you made any acoustic measurements in REW to confirm what the Dirac filters really did to the overall frequency response?

Without knowing the above things, the Dirac filter may have messed up things more than it repaired, and if so, it's not that strange if you and 4 out of your 5 audio friends preferred the sound without the adjustments.
So, how were the Dirac corrections actually done, full range or not? And did you do any manual adjustment, or just leave it all to the "auto magic" calculations?

 

[kyuu]

Even if we assume these tests were in fact blind and properly conducted, and weren't doing silly stupid things like full range correction, if they were not double-blinded then it's quite probable the anti-DSP proctor was influencing the participants.

Dirac certainly improved the bass of my system considerably, and I can quickly and easily enable/disable the filter to check at any time. There's no magic or mystery here, 90+% of the improvement is certainly just from cutting off the peaks from room modes. This is basic shit, that anyone is contesting it as somehow problematic is absurd.

 

[MattHooper]

I would still be interested to hear a few examples of music tracks you listen to, which contain bass instruments, and go as deep as you see fit your definition of being musically meaningful?

Anyway, there are probably a few people out there whose taste in music doesn't contain any or much low bass frequencies, and never listen to anything other than that, but I don't think they are very representative of what most people listen to.

I suspect gwing could have made his point less controversially if he’d said “I personally don’t find frequencies below (whatever - 40Hz?) musically meaningful, so I don’t feel I require them and I don’t miss them.”

I got rid of my subwoofers because for one reason I didn’t find those additional frequencies meaningful enough for my enjoyment to warrant the extra hassle and equipment for subwoofers, DSP etc. (my speakers are rated down to 35 Hz…. Good enough for me at this point).

I'm not sure how many recordings have intended content in the 30-40-Hz range, but if it's there, I want my system to reproduce it accurately to the extent possible. That's the point of pursuing audio as a hobby, it seems to me. If one just wants to listen to music that's pleasing irrespective of what's on the recording, that's fine with me, but that seems to me a different hobby than "audio science", and other forums that accommodate those discussions with little more than the occasional mild derision from the folks here.

Fair enough.

Btw: If we are characterizing this forum or the point of this forum, taking the big picture view, I understand it as: attempting to supply accurate information about the performance of audio gear.

What you like to listen to is up to you. Because if we start doing purity testing in terms of who is listening to accurate playback, this place becomes a glass house full of rocks.

So for instance, I don’t see any contradiction in somebody coming to ASR to learn accurate information about vinyl playback, and turntable set up, even if that is their preferred medium to listen to at home. They should feel just as welcome, vs being made to feel like they are “ letting audio science down.”

(I’m not suggesting that your view is as coarse as that at all, I’m just giving my view)

By the way: love that you are a tuba player! The big brass instruments (as well as low woodwinds) have always been among my favourite instruments in bands and Orchestras. (probably to some level influenced from my lifelong love of Bernard Herrmann’s film scoring, which often employed those to dramatic effect).

 

[dlaloum]

Good musicians absolutely do adjust their playing to suit different halls.

And many good Halls have adjustable acoustic treatments that can be lowered or raised (or installed / removed) depending on how "treated" the performer wants it...

 

[posvibes]

Apart from the loss of fidelity across all musical genres that require deep bass, I still find I am satisfied with the music I listen to using my two way infinite baffle passive bookshelf speakers that probably don't produce much below 65Hz.

Yeah I know...., and at low volume levels to boot.

Still, from a naturalness point of view, from tonality and the like, they're great.

No suffered withdrawal symptoms for Pipe organs or Synths.

 

[Mort]

Warning: Sub-Bass may cause excessive joy. Use with caution.

 

[Keith_W]

For those of you who think that just because you have full range main speakers so you don't need subwoofers, you are wrong because:

1. Adding subwoofers will smooth out the bass response since you have more bass sources in the room;

2. It sounds different. My speakers are capable of going flat down to 20Hz. I did an experiment where I equalized the main speakers alone down to 20Hz. And I made another filter where the mains + subs play together and equalized to the same target curve. I made sure the filters were level matched in DSP, and proceeded to listen. The version with the subwoofer sounds noticeably different. It has way more power and authority without sounding unbalanced and tubby. It's something you have to experience to understand.

And those of you who think you don't need subwoofers because your music does not contain any bass, you are also wrong. Nearly ALL music has bass, even a violin solo. If you don't believe me, take a look at this:

That's a recording of Julia Fischer's Bach Violin Sonatas. See the bass in the spectrogram? That's concert hall ambience. If I were to turn off my subwoofers, the sense of spaciousness collapses noticeably. Granted there is no music down there in this particular recording, but there is still information to be reproduced.

Those of you who have heard a pipe organ will know that it is an overwhelming experience. Even when the SPL is reasonable, the air in your chest vibrates and you can feel the sound. If you don't have subwoofers, forget it - you're not getting that sensation at home.

 

[Mart68]

Verified by the opinions of 5 audio-savvy visitors recently at blind-testing sessions when 4 out of 5 prefered the non-filtered sound, as well as other casual visitors. I'll be doing REW checks soon too.

Setting up 2 identical matched main speakers is easier than setting up those 2 speakers plus a mis-matched sub or two. They all need careful selection (to suit the room's acoustic) and careful setting up.

Frankly it matters less to me if there's a little inaccuracy in measured response at the listening position if I can avoid an extra processor in the signal path. Do musicians adjust adjust their instrument's output to pander to each concert hall's acoustic? No, of course they don't (apart from standard tuning generally to adjust for changes in temperature), and will sound subtly different in each hall and in each seat in the same hall. That's what music is all about – the thrill of the performance, not fiddling around to make a PC screen happy. Or am I wrong in that misguided belief?

But your room is very large so the frequency of the main mode is way below the lowest frequency produced by your speakers.

This is the same reason I don't use subs.

What would you do if you had to move your speakers to a 12' by 10' room? Now you have godawful boomy, uneven bass. Okay you could change the speakers but what if you still want deep bass? You avoided answering this question last time I asked.

 

[Willem]

My main speakers are Quad 2805 electrostats in a 70 sq m room. They go down to 37 Hz, below which they fall off as from a cliff. The three subs (equalized with MSO) that I added make a real difference.

 

[ZolaIII]

But your room is very large so the frequency of the main mode is way below the lowest frequency produced by your speakers.

This is the same reason I don't use subs.

What would you do if you had to move your speakers to a 12' by 10' room? Now you have godawful boomy, uneven bass. Okay you could change the speakers but what if you still want deep bass? You avoided answering this question last time I asked.

Put double row of accustic curtains to the wall behind speakers to 30 cm depth, do the hand PEQ to first room fundamental to spectral plots in REW (level it with other small bursts that ain't related to it don't kill it entirely) play with phase and IIR (PEQ) or do pressure equations with oposit firing sub's. If need be put some diffusers to a wall behind you. Crucial is to do sub's crossovers properly and autended them future (out of the sum equation area and as close to the model as possible).
It's harder, not impossible. When you have room fundamental under what even sub's can push in long room you can model it and use as reinforcement, still don't do it too much (dB boost) or you will destroy decay times. Same way you can use it to reinforce smaller speakers in room that's less long. You see it's about taking advantage when you can and how you can there is no either ideal analog transcever nor space even chamber is quasy anesthetic.

 

[Mart68]

Put double row of accustic curtains to the wall behind speakers to 30 cm depth, do the hand PEQ to first room fundamental to spectral plots in REW (level it with other small bursts that ain't related to it don't kill it entirely) play with phase and IIR (PEQ) or do pressure equations with oposit firing sub's. If need be put some diffusers to a wall behind you. Crucial is to do sub's crossovers properly and autended them future (out of the sum equation area and as close to the model as possible).
It's harder, not impossible. When you have room fundamental under what even sub's can push in long room you can model it and use as reinforcement, still don't do it too much (dB boost) or you will destroy decay times. Same way you can use it to reinforce smaller speakers in room that's less long. You see it's about taking advantage when you can and how you can there is no either ideal analog transcever nor space even chamber is quasy anesthetic.

Yes - in other words you'd use subs and digital correction. I want to know what Here Here's solution is to deep bass in small rooms without using subs and DRC.