How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[gabrielb]

My floor standing speakers can only go to 42HZ so in theory I have lots to gain from adding a sub.
I already added miniDSP-Flex to my setup allowing me to do the XO inside.
I even have the space for a full size (single) SUB.
However, after reading so much about integration failures, measurements and such I decided to skip the SUB (at least for now)

 

[ta240]

I have a sub for movies but not for music. In room measurements show my speakers get plenty low enough for my music, volume level and wants. Whenever I've tried adding a sub or even subs it just messes it up.

REW measurements show the bass getting down into the 30s with just the speakers and all sorts of issues popping up when subs were added.

I also don't have a set listening position in the room. I'm often in different chairs or on the floor with a pet all over the room so it is very easy to end up in a boomy area. The annoyance factor was much higher than any benefit.

When listening without subwoofers I don't ever notice that I'm missing something; yet when using subwoofers I'd often notice something was off. That makes listening without subs much more enjoyable.

 

[HalSF]

I wonder if there’s an impact from two aspects of current subwoofer discussion: the dominant argument now that two or more subwoofers are necessary, with all of the expense and setup/placement effort required; and a relentless emphasis on the difficulties of system integration.

The conventional wisdom seems to have re-formed around an implicit message that the old default of having a single subwoofer in a two-channel system means you’re doing it wrong, and without multiple subs it’s not worth it.

 

[Oddball]

I use multiple subs in both of my HT systems - 5 and 2.

Sub integration is certainly an issue but for solid results it might not be as difficult with REW and decent room correction software (or even PEQ). Having subs with DSP could also potentially help in some scenarios. Dirac with DLBC might be the best answer to most of integration problems with the lest amount of time spent. I think that is important, as otherwise you could end up in the constant loops.

In the bigger HT I also use the bed channels (sans center) as auxiliary subs set to lower volume than the real subs and up to their range capability (30-50hz roll off depending on the speaker). So lots of woofer power. I am not as big of a bass-head as I used to be, but wanted to have plenty of power for both treat and stupid moments, and this setup also provides amazingly smooth and 3D bass at all levels.

Once you start digging in too deep it does start to look like sun shines no more though. No wonder as the hole is too deep - positioning of multiple subs, choice of EQ system, amplitude, phase, group delay, variety of content, cut or boost, bass routing, best crossover point, SPL to calibrate for, etc. The amount of graphs you need to generate becomes grossly unimaginable and then you also need to (should?) check them by ear.

I eventually gave up and my system was set up by a very talented young calibrator that took a week (at least he said - I was on vacay). Was then fine tuned by ear and some piano tuning gear by my good friend that tuned pianos for 30+ years - but we did not really change much. I could hear improvements along the way from my initial calibration, but did not want to look into literally hundreds of REW graphs that were generated along the way. I do have a life and enjoying it is equally important.

 

[levimax]

I recently purchased some Neuman KH310 and have been working to set them up mid-field in a medium size wonky room. In addition to the KH310 I had 4 subs (2 large DIY QTC 0.707 sealed and 2 SVS SB-3000) and a 10 channel interface and a PC and REW and a good MIC and have been spending some time playing around with different combinations including playing the subs in isolation to see what exactly they are doing. I have learned a lot and I mostly don't like the answers.

1. Sub integration, especially with "modern" small enclosure heavily DSP's speakers and subs is very difficult. The "old school" DIY sealed sub with almost no group delay and smooth roll off is the good citizen in the group. The SVS subs with 125 ms group delay, 6+ ms DSP delay, and strong pre-ringing, even though the specs look good on paper, is a big problem and if I knew what I know now and I would not have purchased them. I also tried DIRAC DLBC and it failed miserably unfortunately.

2. For moderate level listening the KH310 play very nice by themselves. At moderate levels even with material with high bass content the SVS subs that I have crossed low do little or nothing audibally. The Fletcher- Munson curve is real.

3. At louder listening levels the DIY subs start coming alive. I have the KH310s co-located with the DIY subs and that combination starts coming into its own at ~75 dB listening level. The DIY's will play down to ~30 Hz with room gain and with the smooth roll off I don't feel like I am missing anything at louder levels. This is in essence like having tower speakers and is a easy practical solution and very enjoyable to listen to for a wide range of listening levels and content.

4. Adding in the 2 SVS subs does not do anything until playing quite loud with music that also has LF content. I test with pipe organ music and the heat beat from DSOTM. In some limited circumstance with the right loudness and content the extra low bass can be exhilarating. Even though I feel like I "don't miss it" with the other combinations when it is there I like it.

5. The most disappointing thing I found is that the small sealed SVS subs don't really put out much SPL below 25 Hz. Because of Fletcher-Munson even 90 dB SPL is not really very loud at 20 Hz. I found that the range where the SVS subs added anything audible down low before they became "overloaded" was small. The rest of the system could easily play louder but the subs could not keep up and when they overloaded they sounded BAD. I much prefer rolled off lows to a failed attempt at the lows. Don't underestimate how hard it is to generate high quality high level SPLs below 25 Hz, it gets exponentially harder every Hz you go down.

My conclusion is 2 near full range well behaved speakers is the most versatile and easy to set up combination and the best place to start. If you are going to add subs then don't bother with the current in style small subs, they are too hard to integrate and they still don't really put out that much LF energy. Go big with big enclosures, big drivers, and big amps.

While it makes no practical sense I did just order an 18" ported sub with 310 liters of volume to see if I can get my pipe organ music to play right.

 

[Oddball]

I recently purchased some Neuman KH310 and have been working to set them up mid-field in a medium size wonky room. In addition to the KH310 I had 4 subs (2 large DIY QTC 0.707 sealed and 2 SVS SB-3000) and a 10 channel interface and a PC and REW and a good MIC and have been spending some time playing around with different combinations including playing the subs in isolation to see what exactly they are doing. I have learned a lot and I mostly don't like the answers.

1. Sub integration, especially with "modern" small enclosure heavily DSP's speakers and subs is very difficult. The "old school" DIY sealed sub with almost no group delay and smooth roll off is the good citizen in the group. The SVS subs with 125 ms group delay, 6+ ms DSP delay, and strong pre-ringing, even though the specs look good on paper, is a big problem and if I knew what I know now and I would not have purchased them. I also tried DIRAC DLBC and it failed miserably unfortunately.

2. For moderate level listening the KH310 play very nice by themselves. At moderate levels even with material with high bass content the SVS subs that I have crossed low do little or nothing audibally. The Fletcher- Munson curve is real.

3. At louder listening levels the DIY subs start coming alive. I have the KH310s co-located with the DIY subs and that combination starts coming into its own at ~75 dB listening level. The DIY's will play down to ~30 Hz with room gain and with the smooth roll off I don't feel like I am missing anything at louder levels. This is in essence like having tower speakers and is a easy practical solution and very enjoyable to listen to for a wide range of listening levels and content.

4. Adding in the 2 SVS subs does not do anything until playing quite loud with music that also has LF content. I test with pipe organ music and the heat beat from DSOTM. In some limited circumstance with the right loudness and content the extra low bass can be exhilarating. Even though I feel like I "don't miss it" with the other combinations when it is there I like it.

5. The most disappointing thing I found is that the small sealed SVS subs don't really put out much SPL below 25 Hz. Because of Fletcher-Munson even 90 dB SPL is not really very loud at 20 Hz. I found that the range where the SVS subs added anything audible down low before they became "overloaded" was small. The rest of the system could easily play louder but the subs could not keep up and when they overloaded they sounded BAD. I much prefer rolled off lows to a failed attempt at the lows. Don't underestimate how hard it is to generate high quality high level SPLs below 25 Hz, it gets exponentially harder every Hz you go down.

My conclusion is 2 near full range well behaved speakers is the most versatile and easy to set up combination and the best place to start. If you are going to add subs then don't bother with the current in style small subs, they are too hard to integrate and they still don't really put out that much LF energy. Go big with big enclosures, big drivers, and big amps.

While it makes no practical sense I did just order an 18" ported sub with 310 liters of volume to see if I can get my pipe organ music to play right.

I would not give up just for the bad experience with the SB-3000's. They are not "that" small, but as any sealed will work best on the premise of room gain. If no significant room gain, they will loose low end as no port that would likely work in those circumstances (aka PB-3000).

Did you try to set them up in some kind of double bass array where SB-3000 would be the canceling speakers - or potentially them being the nearfield speakers so you can get something more out of them in terms of SPL.

Wonky rooms are generally bad for subs - I know as I have one. Not really sure what your DIY sub can do, so not comments there.

 

[Jaxjax]

My floor standing speakers can only go to 42HZ so in theory I have lots to gain from adding a sub.
I already added miniDSP-Flex to my setup allowing me to do the XO inside.
I even have the space for a full size (single) SUB.
However, after reading so much about integration failures, measurements and such I decided to skip the SUB (at least for now)

I'm sorta where you are at. My bass in room sounds good, measures just ok..like most peoples. but I do get to 30 clean with dsp . I just don't know if I really want to invest to get to 20hz flat as I just don't think anything I listen to has much there including my new found fun...Techno. Most of the Techno I listen to so far is slam based & that's NOT under 30. more like 80-100. For all else I listen to I know nothing is there I care about. Now to clean up room mode etcs.. maybe but I don't hear it. My bass is super clean & super tight even in a vented albeit DSP stand mount. 1-5-9
I was all gung ho to build a bunch of Ultimax II subs or similar but I'm seriously teetering on fence about it. 20 to 30 sounds extremely tricky to get right. I was to go the minidsp route & manualy do it with REW help. I did suspect not as many people actually used subs in 2 channel as it seemingly is as an ASR norm. I still might just, gotta study more to see if $ out window. Might be better $ spent for me to DIY BIGGER set of speakers to play with while I have others to refer to.

 

[mhardy6647]

I did for a while but I don't any more. No perceived big improvement avec vs. sans for the music I like and they way I like to listen.

 

[Oddball]

I'm sorta where you are at. My bass in room sounds good, measures just ok..like most peoples. but I do get to 30 clean with dsp . I just don't know if I really want to invest to get to 20hz flat as I just don't think anything I listen to has much there including my new found fun...Techno. Most of the Techno I listen to so far is slam based & that's NOT under 30. more like 80-100. For all else I listen to I know nothing is there I care about. Now to clean up room mode etcs.. maybe but I don't hear it. My bass is super clean & super tight even in a vented albeit DSP stand mount. 1-5-9
I was all gung ho to build a bunch of Ultimax II subs or similar but I'm seriously teetering on fence about it. 20 to 30 sounds extremely tricky to get right. I was to go the minidsp route & manualy do it with REW help. I did suspect not as many people actually used subs in 2 channel as it seemingly is as an ASR norm. I still might just, gotta study more to see if $ out window. Might be better $ spent for me to DIY BIGGER set of speakers to play with while I have others to refer to.

The first thing you need to ask yourself it your room will go with 20hz. That is a fundamental question and relates to structures in your room that will resonate at that frequency, as well as transmission you might be emitting to the 3D around you.

Example of theaters tuned to 10hz I herd were in places remote to the main house. 100m or so? Interesting project my friend wants to do is to see how much closer he can get to it. What is envisioned is multiple and think concrete walls in between. With steel reinforcement for the statics.

 

[sq225917]

No subs.
I only listen to music, stereo, no HT. My speakers have 12" bass drivers, I only listen moderately loudly, my monoblock amps are bridged, the room is too square, and it has an 7 x 5 foot window in it..

I'd quite like an extra 5-10hz extension, but I can't be arsed with the cost or complexity of adding it.

 

[levimax]

I would not give up just for the bad experience with the SB-3000's. They are not "that" small, but as any sealed will work best on the premise of room gain. If no significant room gain, they will loose low end as no port that would likely work in those circumstances (aka PB-3000).

Did you try to set them up in some kind of double bass array where SB-3000 would be the canceling speakers - or potentially them being the nearfield speakers so you can get something more out of them in terms of SPL.

Since I own them I am not going to give up on them. I read up on double bass array but with over 100 ms of GD for the SVS and virtual none for the DIY subs I don't think the timing will work. I did try crossing between the DIY to SVS subs @ 60 Hz but much to my surprise I was getting less output at 30 Hz with 4 subs than 2, that is when I realized that the group delay on the SVS subs was enough to be out of phase @ 30 Hz and was causing cancelation. People say group delay isn't audible which may be the case but it sure can mess up sub integration.

 

[ZolaIII]

I recently purchased some Neuman KH310 and have been working to set them up mid-field in a medium size wonky room. In addition to the KH310 I had 4 subs (2 large DIY QTC 0.707 sealed and 2 SVS SB-3000) and a 10 channel interface and a PC and REW and a good MIC and have been spending some time playing around with different combinations including playing the subs in isolation to see what exactly they are doing. I have learned a lot and I mostly don't like the answers.

1. Sub integration, especially with "modern" small enclosure heavily DSP's speakers and subs is very difficult. The "old school" DIY sealed sub with almost no group delay and smooth roll off is the good citizen in the group. The SVS subs with 125 ms group delay, 6+ ms DSP delay, and strong pre-ringing, even though the specs look good on paper, is a big problem and if I knew what I know now and I would not have purchased them. I also tried DIRAC DLBC and it failed miserably unfortunately.

2. For moderate level listening the KH310 play very nice by themselves. At moderate levels even with material with high bass content the SVS subs that I have crossed low do little or nothing audibally. The Fletcher- Munson curve is real.

3. At louder listening levels the DIY subs start coming alive. I have the KH310s co-located with the DIY subs and that combination starts coming into its own at ~75 dB listening level. The DIY's will play down to ~30 Hz with room gain and with the smooth roll off I don't feel like I am missing anything at louder levels. This is in essence like having tower speakers and is a easy practical solution and very enjoyable to listen to for a wide range of listening levels and content.

4. Adding in the 2 SVS subs does not do anything until playing quite loud with music that also has LF content. I test with pipe organ music and the heat beat from DSOTM. In some limited circumstance with the right loudness and content the extra low bass can be exhilarating. Even though I feel like I "don't miss it" with the other combinations when it is there I like it.

5. The most disappointing thing I found is that the small sealed SVS subs don't really put out much SPL below 25 Hz. Because of Fletcher-Munson even 90 dB SPL is not really very loud at 20 Hz. I found that the range where the SVS subs added anything audible down low before they became "overloaded" was small. The rest of the system could easily play louder but the subs could not keep up and when they overloaded they sounded BAD. I much prefer rolled off lows to a failed attempt at the lows. Don't underestimate how hard it is to generate high quality high level SPLs below 25 Hz, it gets exponentially harder every Hz you go down.

My conclusion is 2 near full range well behaved speakers is the most versatile and easy to set up combination and the best place to start. If you are going to add subs then don't bother with the current in style small subs, they are too hard to integrate and they still don't really put out that much LF energy. Go big with big enclosures, big drivers, and big amps.

While it makes no practical sense I did just order an 18" ported sub with 310 liters of volume to see if I can get my pipe organ music to play right.

Well at least you got it right. In low to sub bass time delay will increase fast and it will be perceived as tale. ISO 226 2012 and later try to adresa this but there is no woofer in the world that will be able to address that offset by loudness increase in the world. 10" is a limit not to compromise the time domain (and still not regarding sub bass). If put strategic two 10" close enclosure sub's close to the wall behind in 2.2 setup will pass sufficiently white noise calibration point (stereo) to mid field in average small room. For the purpose of keeping bass correction from equal loudness compensation (105 Hz knew, closest to Butterwort model) on cone it appears on you do hustle of building towers in the first place so you can do 120 Hz crossovers without directivity issue. You also get massively stressed out butter smoth response (or higher SPL) on mains above cutout (naturally).
And they say I am misleading?

 

[mj30250]

I also have a pair of SB-3000s, and while I am generally happy with them, I also found them more challenging to integrate and they simply can not replicate the smooth, "articulate" experience that the PSA subs in my main setup do, even at lower volumes. The latter were quite easy to coax a ruler flat in-room response from (after some work in positioning them), and can then be readily shaped to taste. They truly sound like a fully coherent extension of my main speakers, except with enough headroom to violently shake the walls of the bedroom two stories up, if that's your thing. To be fair, no other subs that I've auditioned have managed to do all of that, either, and I've tried a lot. It's made me question the extent to which CEA-2010 is useful.

 

[Digital_Thor]

I do enjoy loudspeaker with no subwoofers, but also got annoyed with the bass changing so much when moving around. Multiple subwoofers just smoothed things out, and I since I have the space and willingness to adjust and integrate subwoofers - I find it a win - when you figured it out to your preference that is

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

The phrasing of the original post seem to suggest to those who use and in my case believe that properly integrated subwoofer brings much enjoyment and fidelity's to the reproduction of music, to abstain from the thread....
No doubt that some speakers are quite capable of reproducing with fidelity the full audio range, it remains that subwoofers, as in plural help their users, in getting the best and most linear (smooth) bass in most rooms. Fact, not opinion.
Is it easy? NO, a resounding NO. Is it achievable? Yes. 20 years ago it was an Himalayan task... Today it remain an arduous endeavor but it is more of a small ramp... There are tools that can help. There are software that ease such a project.
This require elbow and brain grease, time, dedication, patience, resilience.

The tools I know and use:
Hardware:
miniDSp 2x4 HD about $250
miniDSP UMik-1. about $125
A laptop with USB, perhaps HDMI output. Free to say around $500...

The Software:
REW Free
MSO, free as well


Time, lot of it. Good results seem to require several iterations. it is more likely that you won't get it right at first trials... The learning curve is steep.

Results? With most any speaker, after months of work in my case, an ear-opening, paradigm shifting experience.


Peace.

 

[Oddball]

Since I own them I am not going to give up on them. I read up on double bass array but with over 100 ms of GD for the SVS and virtual none for the DIY subs I don't think the timing will work. I did try crossing between the DIY to SVS subs @ 60 Hz but much to my surprise I was getting less output at 30 Hz with 4 subs than 2, that is when I realized that the group delay on the SVS subs was enough to be out of phase @ 30 Hz and was causing cancelation. People say group delay isn't audible which may be the case but it sure can mess up sub integration.

In its pure form, double bass will just be canceling you more powerful front subs. Could work or not. Group delay and also phase delay are separate measure points. They might come with a different measurement - which will be specific to your room,

 

[Oddball]

Well at least you got it right. In low to sub bass time delay will increase fast and it will be perceived as tale. ISO 226 2012 and later try to adresa this but there is no woofer in the world that will be able to address that offset by loudness increase in the world. 10" is a limit not to compromise the time domain (and still not regarding sub bass). If put strategic two 10" close enclosure sub's close to the wall behind in 2.2 setup will pass sufficiently white noise calibration point (stereo) to mid field in average small room. For the purpose of keeping bass correction from equal loudness compensation (105 Hz knew, closest to Butterwort model) on cone it appears on you do hustle of building towers in the first place so you can do 120 Hz crossovers without directivity issue. You also get massively stressed out butter smoth response (or higher SPL) on mains above cutout (naturally).
And they say I am misleading?

With all respect, I can't really understand the word yo are saying.

 

[Sokel]

No subs, mains go well down to 30Hz coinciding with a massive room mode there where I usually knock down (not always though, sometimes it feels like a guilty pleasure)
I have tried from one to 3 subs during time at any configuration imaginable, once I had it so loaded I had 4 sec latency!

Lines seemed nice at REW not so nice at ear though.
It was also partly confirmed at later date measured professorially as a courtesy by the people who fixed my room.

Enormous phase issues only fixable for head in a vice, not a cm further and I suspect that even a hand move would chance it too.
4 years sub free then, and I don't see any of them coming any time soon.

 

[Cogito]

I haven't used my sub since I got my Aperion Audio Grandis GR8s.

 

[ZolaIII]

With all respect, I can't really understand the word yo are saying.

What part and be direct.