How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[gwing]

Subwoofers that are not seamlessly integrated with the rest of the loudspeakers in the system will never sound natural, but if you get that right, you and everyone else will prefer a system capable of reproducing a full-range sound over a limited sound.

No, you might prefer that but I don't.

I prefer a system capable of reproducing realistically the full musically meaningful frequency range of the music I listen to. Noise outside that range is something I prefer to do without.

 

[krabapple]

There is no substitute for proper speaker placement. DSP should be used incremental for fine leveling highs with broad filter, impuls matching... and things where accustic treatment simply ain't efficient (bothom two octaves).

Well that's rather an important thing, no? A third of listener's take on how 'good' the audio is, depends on its bass performance.

We should all be thankful that amazing DSP solutions exist to help treat room modal issues, whereas before, the only practical means of attacking them was experiments with rearranging speakers and subs.

 

[Hear Here]

How would one know that without using DSP and measurements? This is a silly argument.

Those flappy things on the side of your head should offer a clue as to the quality of sound your speakers are delivering. There's no harm in taking measurements using a calibrated mic and REW or similar, but these should be an aid to setting up your speakers, seeing what difference a rug or carpet makes, etc. Messing with the amp's signal is a desparate and usually counter-productive measure if the aim is for music to sound life-like and to offer the excitement that it should. Accuracy per se is not necessarily going to achieve this.

 

[Mart68]

A friend lives in a static caravan, so a small space. I was astonished at the performance of his system that includes hORNS speakers - possibly model FB10 Mk3. This a good-sized stand-mount with a 10" bass driver.

hORNs give a response for that model of 55Hz it does not state conditions so I suspect that's best case in room rather than anechoic F3 so it's not a speaker that delivers any real bass which is why it works in small space. Driver size has no direct correlation with how low the speaker will go. What will your friend do if he wants bass down to 30Hz?

I believe you when you say it sounds good, I was impressed with one of their larger models (Symphony 10).

 

[Frank Dernie]

Many, but not all, and there's a difference between acclimating to what you have, and hearing the before/after of an improvement.




The ways in which speakers, their placement, and room acoustics can stuff up a system's sound, by themselves, are quite well documented.

I bought my present speakers in the mid 1990s.
There was no DSP but it was possible to position the speakers in the room to minimise their excitation of the fundamental room modes, as long as the room layout wasn't determined by how it looked.
An acoustic engineer friend of mine who specialised in this sort of thing, helped using MLSSA at the time.
The bass of my speakers is extended but slightly rolled off, presumably what sensible speaker designers did back then to compensate to an extent for the room boost. I forget how big the main mode peaks are now, I have it on a spreadsheet somewhere, but my system has never sounded bass heavy with these speakers, just full range.
I have had speakers in here which were unbearably boomy, perhaps because they were designed to be anechoically flat which you can get away with nowadays with DSP (or at least for one listening position).
Anyway I have listed extensively to favourite music like originally set up and with Audissey creating a Harman like curve and have segued to using the "corrected" for films and the as set up 30 years ago for music.
My room is, and has been for decades, used for practicing musical instruments and the low register ones like cellos and double basses of course excite the room modes to an extent but presumably we must "listen through" the room when listening to real instruments because they sound exactly as I expect in here.

 

[ZolaIII]

Well that's rather an important thing, no? A third of listener's take on how 'good' the audio is, depends on its bass performance.

We should all be thankful that amazing DSP solutions exist to help treat room modal issues, whereas before, the only practical means of attacking them was experiments with rearranging speakers and subs.

In generally yes but it's not a magic wound (DSP), I ain't into shoulder club. You can get there with not much space sacrifice or functionality using common things. It takes time and thinking about it, that's why it's called hobby. I whosent talking about deeps, you either have to find most suitable position first or do overflow (pressure equalisation) which still works for unified wave's but you ruin decay. I do phase adjustment and positioning (lot of other things DSP related of course) and it works fine. It's much easier to sum highs better and get them to what should be natural in room response with limited accustic treatment, minimal really then try (and failed miserably if they are beeming too much) to do it with FIR but you, me or anyone else would be dumb not to use IIR for; room fundamental, crossovers, up to shoulder or as much as you can aim with Q factor if need be and a bit of energy leveling a cross the board. Perhaps bake all back in single FIR if you wish when you are done and use it.

 

[Hear Here]

hORNs give a response for that model of 55Hz it does not state conditions so I suspect that's best case in room rather than anechoic F3 so it's not a speaker that delivers any real bass which is why it works in small space. Driver size has no direct correlation with how low the speaker will go. What will your friend do if he wants bass down to 30Hz?

I believe you when you say it sounds good, I was impressed with one of their larger models (Symphony 10).

Small rooms are likely to be happier without very low frequencies - you don't install cathedral organs in small chapels - they tend to overwhelm!

In fact my friend has recently changed his speakers for floor-standing ones, presumably one of the Aria models, though I've not seen or heard them yet. Driver size I would suggest is a big factor in governing the lowest frequency a speaker will deliver, though of course enclosure design and other factors are vitally important too. At an audio fair I visited a few years ago, I was disappointed with the sound of nearly all the rooms there - granted not true high end. It was only when I visited the Harbeth room with their Model 40 playing, I realised the problem with most others. The trend is towards narrow speakers and often twin 6 - 7" drivers are used. The sound always seems a little "strained" when small bass drivers are asked to deliver deep bass. The Harbeth's single 12" driver offered a far more "relaxed", comfortable and natural listen by comparison – but who would want these squat 1960s style speakers in their living rooms however great they sound? I've always favoured speakers with decent-sized bass drivers, often twin 10" (KEF Reference 107, Avantgarde Duo, Martin Logan 13A) or twin 12" (Avantgarde Duo XD) but I've moved away from 15" ones that I had in my earlier systems (Wharfedale Airedale, Westrex 2326A) because they tend to be "flabby" and slow as a result of small voice coils with several inches of paper cone between the coil and the surround, causing a distortion-generating "ripple" effect. Avantgarde's 12" drivers use huge 6" coils to minimise this effect.

 

[pinger]

'Flat' originates from the Old English 'Flett' meaning 'All on one level.'

I didn't know that either, had to look it up.

No-one uses 'apartment' in the UK except maybe the estate agents.

I know I was teasing !

 

[JRowland]

I wouldn't call this texture, this is simpy a quick LFO increasing and decreasing volume / filter cutoff. By texture I mean things like grainy, sharp, edgy, hollow [...]. These are determined in the higher registers by (harmonic) distortion of soundwaves and such.

With some good volume the way my room shakes when the warble effect is deployed fits my definition of edgy. Unconventional, very intense, and a lot of contrast to the voice and simple piano woven in. Very tactile surface characteristics, i.e. texture.

 

[FireEmblem]

With some good volume the way my room shakes when the warble effect is deployed fits my definition of edgy. Unconventional, very intense, and a lot of contrast to the voice and simple piano woven in. Very tactile surface characteristics, i.e. texture.

When you play back that track and then isolate 0-40Hz (100% bypassing everything else), you won't hear the texture anymore. You'll hear the sub part isolated which will be only the dull "oomph". Except you're hearing the membrane of the subwoofer flutter, or something in your room resonating, but that wouldn't come from the track itself.

 

[Sal1950]

bass may be an unsolvable issue (but that varies based on room, speakers, etc...)

In-room bass is most always an unsolvable issue without the use of some form of EQ, modern digital the best so far.

Those flappy things on the side of your head should offer a clue as to the quality of sound your speakers are delivering. There's no harm in taking measurements using a calibrated mic and REW or similar, but these should be an aid to setting up your speakers, seeing what difference a rug or carpet makes, etc. Messing with the amp's signal is a desparate and usually counter-productive measure if the aim is for music to sound life-like and to offer the excitement that it should. Accuracy per se is not necessarily going to achieve this.

Unless you are a professionally trained listener, any setup or tuning without the use of measurements will normally result in a sound that doesn't accurately represent that which the recording was designed to produce. It will simply be tuned to that listeners preferences. Accuracy is the final goal and the absolute definition of a High Fidelity system.

 

[krabapple]

No, you might prefer that but I don't.

I prefer a system capable of reproducing realistically the full musically meaningful frequency range of the music I listen to. Noise outside that range is something I prefer to do without.

Does the music you listen to contain no frequencies down to 40 Hz? That's about where the lowest note of a bass (upright or electric) and a kick drum live. (Some upright or electric basses are set up to go even lower)
Then there's synth and organ music, which can have lower fundamentals down to 20 and less.

 

[goat76]

No, you might prefer that but I don't.

I prefer a system capable of reproducing realistically the full musically meaningful frequency range of the music I listen to. Noise outside that range is something I prefer to do without.

Can you give a few examples of music tracks you listen to, which contain bass instruments, and goes as deep as you see fit your definition of being musically meaningful?

 

[dlaloum]

Many, but not all, and there's a difference between acclimating to what you have, and hearing the before/after of an improvement.




The ways in which speakers, their placement, and room acoustics can stuff up a system's sound, by themselves, are quite well documented.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but human nature being what it is, documentation is only likely to be sought through frustration after all else has failed!!

 

[kyuu]

No, you might prefer that but I don't.

I prefer a system capable of reproducing realistically the full musically meaningful frequency range of the music I listen to. Noise outside that range is something I prefer to do without.

This seems like a bizarre statement to me. What sound produced by an instrument in the audible band would not be "musically meaningful"?

 

[MT_bassbone]

I don't run subs. I am currently in the middle of build of a pair of Heismann Acoustics DXT MON-182. I am hoping I don't need subs with this speakers.

 

[Mort]

Messing with the amp's signal is a desparate and usually counter-productive measure if the aim is for music to sound life-like and to offer the excitement that it should. Accuracy per se is not necessarily going to achieve this.

What's desperate is this tired 'argument'.

 

[Hear Here]

What's desperate is this tired 'argument'.

Why would one go to the expense of buying a high quality and accurate amplifier if you then deliberately destroy its accuracy because you can't choose and set up the rest of the system optimally without DSP?

As I've said before, I'm not saying that multi-speaker AV/HT systems won't benefit from DSP, but please try to fix problems in 2-channel systems without resorting to the spoiling of the amp's accuracy. If you are relying on DSP to "adjust" the signal such that your ears receive a flat response, why buy good quality amps and speakers in the first place? But I must admit that adding DSP to a poorly chosen or set up system may deliver what appears to be improved sound, so I accept your criticism of my opinion.

 

[Keith_W]

Why would one go to the expense of buying a high quality and accurate amplifier if you then deliberately destroy its accuracy because you can't choose and set up the rest of the system optimally without DSP?

Have you ever taken a measurement of your room to see what it's doing to your sound?

 

[dlaloum]

Why would one go to the expense of buying a high quality and accurate amplifier if you then deliberately destroy its accuracy because you can't choose and set up the rest of the system optimally without DSP?

As I've said before, I'm not saying that multi-speaker AV/HT systems won't benefit from DSP, but please try to fix problems in 2-channel systems without resorting to the spoiling of the amp's accuracy. If you are relying on DSP to "adjust" the signal such that your ears receive a flat response, why buy good quality amps and speakers in the first place? But I must admit that adding DSP to a poorly chosen or set up system may deliver what appears to be improved sound, so I accept your criticism of my opinion.

Ideally, you start by setting things up as well as possible, obviously within the limitations of the available environment (including those you share it with!!).

You position the speakers (especially L, R and Center) - adjust toe in, distance from wall(s), do what can be done with the room (thick acoustically absorbant curtains can do wonders with the higher frequency reflections), bookshelves are also excellent with rows of books helping too...

Then you look at applying DSP...

Amps ...well yes you want something good, but anything halfway decent nowadays will do the "wire with gain" job.... the key thing with amps is to ensure that they properly match your speakers... if you have easy to drive 8 ohm speakers - great, pretty much anything will do a good job. If your speakers drop down to 1.6 ohm like mine, then the selection is a lot more limited... so yes you need a good amp.

But "high quality, accurate" - very very few amps aren't accurate today... (unless you are into some of the tube or similar designs that are intentionally "coloured"....), and there are plenty of high quality amps.

Amps and speakers alone will not compensate for room effects - proper room setup can make the best of the room such as it is - and thereafter, the options are to change the room (we are talking builders, acousticians, bass traps, other treatments, and $$$,$$$ ), or do the best we can using DSP to ameliorate things (typically $$$ to $$$$).

Most of us live in the budget category that excludes the "change the room" alternative - but can readily access the DSP option.