How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[FireEmblem]

headphone chest thump...now that's a new one

Don't know where you read "chest pump" in my post, you can still feel pressure over your ears and the body transmits this to some degree. Try very bassy headphones, listen to some EDM music with low end punch and then roll off everything below 50Hz, you'll feel a big difference.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Don't know where you read "chest pump" in my post, you can still feel pressure on your ears u know

don't know where you read "chest pump" in my post either

(more seriously, the chest thump experience of massive bass is an essential aspect of some areas of music, and it requires big SPL and deep freqs. matters a lot to many music lovers, but as always ymmv)

 

[FireEmblem]

don't know where you read "chest pump" in my post either

(more seriously, the chest thump experience of massive bass is an essential aspect of some areas of music, and it requires big SPL and deep freqs. matters a lot to many music lovers, but as always ymmv)

Yeah but like I said in my other post, experiencing bass physically for the joy of it is a different question than what's actually in the source material of the audio and your ability to mix it. The physical pressure that subwoofers create are absolutely not required for mixing low end. They show you the exact same information headphones do, just with air pressure added. But the source material is the same in headphones and the informations you need for mixing, the overall amount of presence and the ratio to the rest of the track, are all there.

I was mixing a track a couple of weeks ago where the low end below 45Hz was so boomy that it put very heavy pressure onto the ears in the headphones and it consumed a good part of the mix. Headphones totally revealed this to me so that I could dial it down and adjust it until it blended well with the music.

 

[Sal1950]

I prefer to listen to my music with out subs. I just think it sounds more natural. The exception would be heavy electronic based music, then subs are fine.

I can respect your preferences but find I have to say if a sub or 2 effects the sound in a negative way, there is something wrong with it's setup integration.
When they are set-up correctly they should only have a positive effect on the playback of any music.

Absolutely yes. I never feel anything physically unless the SPL is way beyond excessive, and I *hate* that.

There are a lot of different physical sensations sound can cause. Do you prefer a loud kick drum without being able to feel it in your chest? I find a loud kick drum I can't feel to be unrealistic and not really Hi-Fi. Luckily we are not all the same and can make our own choices.

It is all simply a matter of bass extension, system linearity, and playback spl. If your attempting to reproduce a live event and play it at that live level, you should be feeling the physical effect of the bass. If not something isn't right.

 

[Chanur]

To be fair I have a very meh sub that will eventually be updated. I may change my mind then but right now I prefer a mostly full range two channel set up.

 

[dlaloum]

To be fair I have a very meh sub that will eventually be updated. I may change my mind then but right now I prefer a mostly full range two channel set up.

We have tools now for sub integration (software DSP based) that no one dreamt of 20 years ago...

When it comes to music, you also need a sub which is not so much focused on high SPL at infrasonic frequencies (sub 20Hz) - but rather a sub that is very low distortion, and focuses on giving you very clean 20hz to 60Hz (assuming you have full range speakers).

My Gallo TR1 isn't high powered, but it is low distortion, and can stretch down to 24Hz (-3db according to specs) - but actually has a gentle roll off (typical of true sealed designs) which means it is still providing meaningfull bass below 20Hz

I am by no means a bass head - and for years I could not get subs to integrate properly with my electrostatic speakers (Quad 63's, and 989's) - but what can be achieved today bears no resemblance to what was possible only 15 years ago...

With a music focus - I would definitely focus on sealed sub designs... coincidentally, they will work well with movies.... but the higher output, higher distortion ported designs, although they do well with movie effects (who cares what the distortion is on an explosion?!) - they often do a lot less well with music - particularly, well recorded acoustic instruments...

The Gallo TR1, TR3 are exemplary examples of "musical" subs. (not that they lack competition, but they were originally designed by Anthony Gallo, for music, not for movie effects...)
The primary market for subs now, is movies and electronic music, where low distortion, high fidelity, is less obvious...

(putting on flame resistant suit, and running for cover)

 

[Keith_W]

I prefer to keep things simple and enjoy unadulterated music as it was intended to be heard.

That is a complete fallacy. The speakers and rooms adulterate your music. DSP goes a long way towards "un-adulterating" the music and restoring it to the way it was meant to be heard.

 

[dlaloum]

That is a complete fallacy. The speakers and rooms adulterate your music. DSP goes a long way towards "un-adulterating" the music and restoring it to the way it was meant to be heard.

There are benefits to simplicity - many room related issues are filtered out by our own ever versatile brains...

And the ways in which DSP / EQ can be used to thoroughly and completely stuff up a systems sound, are legion!!

I set up a simple pair of mini speakers (PSB Alpha Intro) with a WiiM streamer amp for my son's bedroom - and it does a damn good job of providing music without fuss, no EQ, no nothing...

At some point he may ask for a sub... and that upgrade option exists... but simple has its charms and advantages!

Meanwhile he (my 12yo son) looks on in fascination when I bring up REW or Dirac on the main system .... and I explain what I am doing, why I am doing it and what the different lines / charts / displays mean ...

 

[Keith_W]

There are benefits to simplicity - many room related issues are filtered out by our own ever versatile brains...

You're in Melbourne. Come on over and i'll show you the difference between DSP and no DSP. If you still think your brain filters out a bad frequency response and fills in nulls in the frequency response, then i'll have nothing to say.

And the ways in which DSP / EQ can be used to thoroughly and completely stuff up a systems sound, are legion!!

Yes, I agree. I do keep saying that. But it's not DSP that is stuffing up a system, it's the user. DSP is a tool, and tools have to be used properly.

 

[dlaloum]

You're in Melbourne. Come on over and i'll show you the difference between DSP and no DSP. If you still think your brain filters out a bad frequency response and fills in nulls in the frequency response, then i'll have nothing to say.

No need to convince me, I've been onboard since seeing (lusting after...) the Sansui SE9 many many years ago...

But I have also had, and heard, excellent purist stereo setups (and owned a couple) - it takes more effort, the speakers need to be positioned just right, bass may be an unsolvable issue (but that varies based on room, speakers, etc...)

Large rooms are a lot more forgiving than little ones too!

Yes, I agree. I do keep saying that. But it's not DSP that is stuffing up a system, it's the user. DSP is a tool, and tools have to be used properly.

Sure... but no one is going to admit that they are the "tool" that messed up using their tools....

(OK, OK I've messed up a couple of times, or more, but once it hit my ears.... I went and fixed it)

My new AVR with it's ART licence is waiting.... (for me to have the time and the household silence...)

 

[ZolaIII]

@dlaloum well DSP still has limitations even without bounderis in FP domain some thing's are better to do where problem really lies. Improving dumping coefficient of the space especially back to front coefficient and in generally RT decay states. Limited accustic isolation/treatment can improve things drastically especially in small room and yes it's easier and more rewarding in big especially long one as back to front is much less of a problem and you can use room fundamental in your advantage. There is no substitute for proper speaker placement. DSP should be used incremental for fine leveling highs with broad filter, impuls matching... and things where accustic treatment simply ain't efficient (bothom two octaves). So again keep timings good and try not to mess them up too much with DSP. To prise Art it at least still have ELC.

 

[Mart68]

Why do you blokes call it a "flat" LOL! Its an apartment for crying out loud!

'Flat' originates from the Old English 'Flett' meaning 'All on one level.'

I didn't know that either, had to look it up.

No-one uses 'apartment' in the UK except maybe the estate agents.

 

[goat76]

I prefer to listen to my music with out subs. I just think it sounds more natural. The exception would be heavy electronic based music, then subs are fine.

Subwoofers that are not seamlessly integrated with the rest of the loudspeakers in the system will never sound natural, but if you get that right, you and everyone else will prefer a system capable of reproducing a full-range sound over a limited sound. The real-world sounds out there are never frequency-limited in any sort of way, and if you could put something in the ears to limit the bass extension in a similar way to a pair of small loudspeakers not capable of a full-range sound, I find it hard to believe anyone would find that sounding ”more natural”, and rather incomplete.

I get it, it’s pretty hard to integrate subwoofers seamlessly, and many people fail to get that right. But you should all recognize that the main problem isn’t with the subwoofers; it’s you failing to get them to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers. When you get that right, the subwoofers will only act like ”bass extensions” for the main speakers, unless you already have large speakers capable of doing that on their own, but I’m sure most of us don’t have main speakers capable of a true full-range sound.

And beyond that, there is also the issue of room acoustics, where nearly every room has bass problems to address, which can be very challenging to solve with room acoustic treatment (but if you can, that's the way to do it). However, thanks to EQ, REW measurements, and a little time on your hands, most of us should be able to sort that out with or without the help of other members. There are also many threads here on ASR that should be helpful in this regard.

I have managed to integrate my two subwoofers completely seamlessly with the main speakers. The result is that I never hear the subwoofers as separate transducers, but if I turn them off, the obvious thing that happens is that the full-range bass extension goes missing.

 

[JaccoW]

I live in an apartment with neighbours next door and below me.

I don't want to be a nuisance. And I already had to decouple the bookshelf speakers on stands because they made the floor rumble.

 

[Hear Here]

You're in Melbourne. Come on over and i'll show you the difference between DSP and no DSP. If you still think your brain filters out a bad frequency response and fills in nulls in the frequency response, then i'll have nothing to say.

You're in Melbourne, I'm in Portsmouth - Pop over some time and I'll demonstrate how you can enjoy music without resorting to this extra processor, often labelled a "room correction digital signal processor"

We all know these DSPs cannot correct the room - all they can do is attempt to fudge the jobs that should be done before DSP is even considered by spoiling your amp's nice flat frequency response to pander to your setting up problems. If your system sounds so much better with DSP than without it, then perhaps you have the wrong type of speaker for your room's characteristics, or have chosen the speakers badly, or have not set them up optimally, or have ignored room furnishings, or (if that has all failed - very unlikely) you have not applied a degree of room treatment. I have recently had 2 groups of audio-savvy friends around (5 individuals) and I have switched from Dirac Filter to No Filter without them knowing which was which and 4 chose the No Filter as the most faithful rendition of music they were familiar with and the 5th expressed no preference.

If your own system is a multi-speaker one, then you inevitably have serious setting up problems and will probably need to use DSP to help you out of these problems unless you have real setting-up expertise. I'm taking about 2-channel audio where DSP is an unnecessary evil that should and normally can be avoided – as is true for any extra processor along the signal route. Your Profile gives no clue to your system, so perhaps you have a complex AV one that is more likely to benefit from DSP. But as long as we're all happy …..

 

[Mort]

If your system sounds so much better with DSP than without it, then perhaps you have the wrong type of speaker for your room's characteristics

How would one know that without using DSP and measurements? This is a silly argument.

 

[Mart68]

If your system sounds so much better with DSP than without it, then perhaps you have the wrong type of speaker for your room's characteristics, or have chosen the speakers badly, or have not set them up optimally, or have ignored room furnishings,

This does assume that you don't want deep bass in a small room but a lot of people do.

If you have a small room then you could just get some small speakers with no real output below 100Hz and likely you'd have no problem with boomy or uneven bass response but then you won't have any real 'bass' at all.

This was the solution I put together for a friend who lives down the street from me but whose house is a different configuration (two small rooms with a stairwell in between unlike mine which is one large room with the stairwell at the back). It works fine without DSP but there is no real bass. He lives with it since he does not want to go to the additional expense of adding subwoofers and DSP.

But for someone who does want 'real' bass what is your solution for such rooms other than DSP? Bearing in mind that normal room furnishings will solve no problems at low frequencies and effective bass traps or resonators are just too large to be practical in, say, a 12' by 11' living room?

 

[ZolaIII]

@Mart68 big absorber dosent have to look as one, tho it has to be about 30 cm deep and multi chamber/layer to reach bottom two octaves. Thick double acoustic curtains all across the wall behind help. It's old theatre trick used to separate and isolate main stage from public. You still correct room fundamental with DSP so that it's in line with rest of the spectrum (in REW spectral plots). It will be there to correct anyhow if it's not unreal big hall, difrence is when it's 7~8m long one you can controled (DSP-ed) use it as reinforcement to do which even big sub's can't, boosting sub bass to a level of time alignment of amplitude for it's lag (ISO 226 2012 or newer) so it doesn't appear as tale.
What I wanted to say, you can get there even in a small room but it's much more work to get there. Also you can enjoy full spectrum at relatively lower SPL (under 70 dB) with properly integrated ELC (even under 60 if it's greatly integrated) even in urban living conditions at least neighbors will complain lot less with it then without it. You dump sub's from floor naturally the vibrations are the problem.

 

[Hear Here]

But for someone who does want 'real' bass what is your solution for such rooms other than DSP?

Headphones perhaps?

No. to be more serious, I'd suggest a well-chosen pair of speakers that will deliver ample bass without boominess. A friend lives in a static caravan, so a small space. I was astonished at the performance of his system that includes hORNS speakers - possibly model FB10 Mk3. This a good-sized stand-mount with a 10" bass driver. No need for sub or DSP in this space, as this type and model of speaker suits his room very well. There is always a speaker to be found that offers a good match, but so many people move house without changing their speakers or just never ask themselves whether their speakers are suitable for their room - type as well as brand and model of course.

 

[krabapple]

There are benefits to simplicity - many room related issues are filtered out by our own ever versatile brains...

Many, but not all, and there's a difference between acclimating to what you have, and hearing the before/after of an improvement.

And the ways in which DSP / EQ can be used to thoroughly and completely stuff up a systems sound, are legion!!

The ways in which speakers, their placement, and room acoustics can stuff up a system's sound, by themselves, are quite well documented.