How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[FireEmblem]

@FireEmblem start with basic how we perceive bass and amplitude to time compensation. Don't confuse quantity for quality and keep quality under control.
Those are fundamentals to ELC.
Tbh you can find in HD668B thread here and I don't deal with personal beliefs (God forbid) all good mesured and document perhaps.
Time/space domain can of course be discussed much more in depth but I bare not. Really no need for it.
Disclaimer; I ain't pro and counter, use both and still prefer speakers when I can.

I'm not confusing anything. I know what distortion sounds like, you said they'd distort, I replied they don't. You said they don't got as low, I said they do. Has nothing to do with how we perceive bass in general. It's just simply what these headphones do and what they don't.

With low end the most important thing is to make sure it's subtle in the back and not consuming everything else, and that's something you can review perfectly fine in headphones. Frequencies that low don't have much other information, nor is it full of harmonics neither is there much space for texture or anything else, as these things are determined in the higher octaves. So it comes down to mainly hearing it and being able to dial it in so it blends well with the rest of the track.

 

[JRowland]

The wobble creates noticeable “texture” does it not?

I get tonal differentiation as well, Gate headphones sound pretty good but the “feels” are much more powerful on my stereo.

 

[FireEmblem]

The wobble creates noticeable “texture” does it not?

I wouldn't call this texture, this is simpy a quick LFO increasing and decreasing volume / filter cutoff. By texture I mean things like grainy, sharp, edgy, hollow [...]. These are determined in the higher registers by (harmonic) distortion of soundwaves and such.

Low end<40-50Hz can only be on or off. That can be sustained or like in this example with a quick modulation, but there is no complex detail that requires very analytical tools to work with.

As an example, if you create a kick on a synthesizer, that's done by having a high pitch as a starting point that's quickly falling down into the lowend via an envelope. The sound can be divided in the lower half, the low end that creates the body and the "oomph" and the upper half which determines the texture. In the upper half you can design all sort of things that create the very different feelings that kicks could have, while the bottom end would always only add the "oomph" no matter what you put on top. Even if you compare 10 vastly different kicks and isolate the low-end, the low end will barely vary, because all information that we perceive as texture are higher.

And that's why it's perfectly fine to evaluate low end in headphones. The only important information is the presence and its relationship in terms of volume to the rest of the track. Of course your subwoofer will deliver the low end with much more energy and you will be able to feel it more powerful. But you won't spot "details" in it that you couldn't spot in headphones. You might hear your subwoofer physically working though, but that isn't a part of the original sound source.

 

[ZolaIII]

I wouldn't call this texture, this is simpy a quick LFO increasing and decreasing volume / filter cutoff. By texture I mean things like grainy, sharp, edgy, hollow [...]. These are determined in the higher registers by (harmonic) distortion of soundwaves and such.

Low end<40-50Hz can only be on or off. That can be sustained or like in this example with a quick modulation, but there is no complex detail that requires very analytical tools to work with.

As an example, if you create a kick on a synthesizer, that's done by having a high pitch as a starting point that's quickly falling down into the lowend via an envelope. The sound can be divided in the lower half, the low end that creates the body and the "oomph" and the upper half which determines the texture. In the upper half you can design all sort of things that create the very different feelings that kicks could have, while the bottom end would always only add the "oomph" no matter what you put on top. Even if you compare 10 vastly different kicks and isolate the low-end, the low end will barely vary, because all information that we perceive as texture are higher.

And that's why it's perfectly fine to evaluate low end in headphones. The only important information is the presence and its relationship in terms of volume to the rest of the track. Of course your subwoofer will deliver the low end with much more energy and you will be able to feel it more powerful. But you won't spot "details" in it that you couldn't spot in headphones. You might hear your subwoofer physically working though, but that isn't a part of the original sound source.

How is that important (SPL levels) and what determine it? It's time for to do a long reading session. I didn't claim anything and showed measurements. The depth of the stage is determined by lv of back to front refractions and we can simulate echo (reverb) to certain point (actually a lot but not to rather complex models) especially with headphones but it won't still be perceived like speakers. Not many even with speakers do it right and even less emulate it like that on headphones.

 

[FireEmblem]

How is that important (SPL levels) and what determine it? It's time for to do a long reading session. I didn't claim anything and showed measurements. The depth of the stage is determined by lv of back to front refractions and we can simulate echo (reverb) to certain point (actually a lot but not to rather complex models) especially with headphones but it won't still be perceived like speakers. Not many even with speakers do it right and even less emulate it like that on headphones.

I think you're mixing up two topics. You say it will pereceived different with speakers - of course it will. But the OG comment you replied to and the argument you two debate was whether or not you can analyse and mix lowend in headphones. For doing so it isn't of value if sub feels different irl, depending on the size and position in the room in relationship to the speakers and air moved. The only things that matter for that are

the presence and its relationship in terms of volume to the rest of the track.

You cannot spot different details like "Oh, the low end sounds razorblade sharp with subwoofer but dull and soft on headphones". These details (such as these that could make a sound being perceived as "sharp") are determined in higher registers and not present in the low end at all. Any sound texture requires a bigger frequency range to travel trough it in a given time, so that we can interpret that movement as texture. Low waves can't deliver either, the range from 0-50Hz is way too short and slow to create anything vastly different that can be interpreted as texture.

That's why a pure sinewave at 30Hz sounds just dull and just makes "ooomph", but if you try a square wave at 30Hz you'll get a gritty texture due to the overtones that are being created in higher registers.

 

[levimax]

So it comes down to mainly hearing it and being able to dial it in so it blends well with the rest of the track.

Bass is perceived in many ways by the entire body beyond just hearing with the ears like headphones.

 

[pablolie]

Bass is perceived in many ways by the entire body beyond just hearing with the ears like headphones.

I for one hate that sensation, and it's known to not be pleasant for many. Keep it for my ears.

 

[levimax]

I for one hate that sensation, and it's known to not be pleasant for many. Keep it for my ears.

There are a lot of different physical sensations sound can cause. Do you prefer a loud kick drum without being able to feel it in your chest? I find a loud kick drum I can't feel to be unrealistic and not really Hi-Fi. Luckily we are not all the same and can make our own choices.

 

[pablolie]

... Do you prefer a loud kick drum without being able to feel it in your chest?

Absolutely yes. I never feel anything physically unless the SPL is way beyond excessive, and I *hate* that.

... Luckily we are not all the same and can make our own choices.

Exactly.

 

[ZolaIII]

@FireEmblem which is psy dependant of SPL. So we tend to use ELC in it's still evolving form to compensate for it out of the calibration point to which it's not needed. And when you don't mix with that accounted in better is that you don't. Headphones are future tricky because well you can't reliably mesure SPL and as there are very low distortion ones people tend to push it (SPL). As a matter a fact this is becoming major concern. Harman is nothing more than natural speaker in room response adjusted with similar bass/treble filters to mid SPL (76 dB as I remember) or better say attempt of it.
On speakers I can adjust a lot more things and to accurate SPL. I use 2.2 for music and block propagation of fundamental regarding sub's response, they are crossed high @ 120 Hz for the sake of holding ELC bass knew on driver. So I ain't getting 1~2 KHz second harmonic which oddly even for headphones in the case of mentioned Superlux is at 4 KHz. It sums naturally or how it's mixed and paid special attention improving RT times. I have one of most prominent slamming headphones still to Harman and rather very low distortion and it's not even close expect to rest of tonality that I don't need cross adoption (as it's same natural target).

 

[AndyBell]

Interested in the thoughts of those who don't run subs in their systems & the why of it. I already get enough data on the reasons to do it but not much on reasons not too.

In my small office I, following a suggestion on this forum, added a small sub and it has made a big difference.

It’s small (6”) because I have very limited space and also don’t want to upset the neighbours - I live in a flat. Thankfully, my office is above the communal stairwell and backs onto my neighbour’s bathroom, so I can let the sub be quite audible.

It’s made a big difference to my limited setup, and I like a bass rich sound…

 

[pinger]

In my small office I, following a suggestion on this forum, added a small sub and it has made a big difference.

It’s small (6”) because I have very limited space and also don’t want to upset the neighbours - I live in a flat. Thankfully, my office is above the communal stairwell and backs onto my neighbour’s bathroom, so I can let the sub be quite audible.

It’s made a big difference to my limited setup, and I like a bass rich sound…

Why do you blokes call it a "flat" LOL! Its an apartment for crying out loud!

 

[AndyBell]

Why do you blokes call it a "flat" LOL! Its an apartment for crying out loud!

Hey dude, we call it a flat because it’s quite spacious and roomy and not at all flat!

 

[Frank Dernie]

Why do you blokes call it a "flat" LOL! Its an apartment for crying out loud!

Because flat is the English term
Apartment is USian.

 

[AndyBell]

Because flat is the English term
Apartment is USian.

Apparently has French roots, according to Chambers dictionary.

‘Sub’ comes from Latin, apparently.

 

[FireEmblem]

Bass is perceived in many ways by the entire body beyond just hearing with the ears like headphones.

Yeah, but the fact that you perceive bass physically due to a subwoofer doesn't change anything in regards to the source material or your ability to mix it.

there are very low distortion ones people tend to push it (SPL).

You won't push it in your headphones to compensate because you'll immediately hear if your overdo it and the rumbling is starting to cover up your music. When it's subtle in the back, you know it fits right. And if it's exposed and more powerful, you're still able to tell when it rumbles too much. And of course a spectrum analyzer should be generally one of the tools in your box when you mix, whether that's with headphones or speakers.

 

[egellings]

I have a pair of full range floor-stander speakers (ProAc Response 3.8 model), and their bass output is adequate for me. I don'r feel a need for subs, and I don't use the speakers for movie sound effects, which, might put a subwoofer to good use. They are there solely to tickle my nun-handles with music, which they do admirably.

 

[xanalog]

.... I never feel anything physically unless the SPL is way beyond excessive, and I *hate* that.

... and your ears and hearing totally excessively *love* you for that!

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I still can feel pumping bass from the headphones.

headphone chest thump...now that's a new one

 

[Hear Here]

With my existing floorstanding speakers I have a system that constantly leaves me in utter bliss. The sound is ultra clear, smooth, able to be expansive and sound staging and imaging, has plenty of bass punch that really engages me, and enough bass depth to… for my purposes… due justice to every type of music, I listen to.​

I had subwoofers and DSP. And yes, they even doubt the bass performance, including the room nodes. But after living with that for quite a while I found, I did not personally “need” that last bit of perfection and the bass linearity.

For some other audiophile that change might’ve been profound or extremely satisfying. But for me, I am much more concentrated on other areas of performance which leave me deeply engaged, and so I don’t need that last bit of bass extension or linearity. I did not find it increased my “bliss level” in listening. And since it wasn’t worth it to me, I got rid of the subwoofer stuff.

How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....​

I run dual subs in our dedicated theater. For 2-channel music, my Revel Salon 2 speakers have perfect bass response so I feel no need to add a sub to them and go through all the trouble of integrating it. I also don't know if the family will put up with more bass.

Likewise, I don't need subs for similar reasons. I want to listen to the full frequency range of the performance, so I buy full-range speakers. These feature twin 12" bass drivers, so no need to add more drivers that add complication or perhaps the temptation to mess with the nice flat response of my amp by introducing an unnecessary extra processor - DSP.

I prefer to keep things simple and enjoy unadulterated music as it was intended to be heard.