How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[Keith_W]

Maybe you should get yourself a Denon someday, Keith — you really need to experience ART firsthand.

Hahaha, I would be more interested in reverse-engineering it! I obtained some papers to read, but the maths is WAAAAAAAAAAAY over my head. I don't even know where to begin! I know someone who managed to sort of get it working, but even he has trouble getting it to work with minphase IIR. He says he has it working with linphase though. I am not as good at maths as him. Maybe give me a few years and I might figure it out

 

[kawauso]

Hahaha, I would be more interested in reverse-engineering it! I obtained some papers to read, but the maths is WAAAAAAAAAAAY over my head. I don't even know where to begin! I know someone who managed to sort of get it working, but even he has trouble getting it to work with minphase IIR. He says he has it working with linphase though. I am not as good at maths as him. Maybe give me a few years and I might figure it out

I think if we could take the filters that ART calculates and convolve them manually, it should theoretically work even on non-compatible hardware.
But the actual computation seems completely black-box and not something that can be easily reproduced.
This kind of manual waveforming approach appears to have achieved a decay effect similar to ART — quite fascinating, isn’t it?

Audio First Fidelia on Erin’s Audio Corner

I like how the black baffle is set on the front of the box, it looks really cool. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the checker board midrange that I saw used on the prototype tho. The look of the midrange or it's performance?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MattHooper]

I have come to the same conclusion. To me, the best-sounding result I have had (and now have) is when I have my two subwoofers connected in a stereo configuration, and have them positioned close to the outside of each front left and right main loudspeaker. Even if it does not give me the flattest possible bass response, it is still the best bass sound I have ever achieved, as I can't hear the bass dips that can be seen in the measurements.

Among the most seamless sub integration I’ve heard was back when I had my Quad 63s atop the Gradient dipole subs that were specially designed for the Quads:

They were like 2001 monoliths in our living room though, which is one reason I moved on from them.

 

[Flaesh]

Don't want to go off topic but what delays and what frequency range are you using for the DBA linked in your signature?

The delay is equal to the length of the room. The theoretical upper limit is determined by the distance between the subwoofers, but in a real room it's lower. We can continue the discussion in my thread. And Rene's excellent thread is helpful.

 

[Hear Here]

Your ignorance is astounding.



"Few wrinkles". Like a +/- 20dB dip in your frequency response?

If that's what you get, you have poorly chosen speakers, have poorly set them up and have paid little attention to your room's treatment. You don't need subs or DSP if you've attended to these vitally important elements before resorting to DSP. Please re-read my post

 

[Hear Here]

I agree for the most part but some careful DSP amplitude cuts of room modes below Schroder can be very helpful and if done correctly and will do no harm.

Now it's that last observation that I have doubts about - "it can do no harm" I've used a number of "room correction DSPs" (a dishonest description as they can never correct the room!) and these are of the type that can only adjust the lower frequencies - Dirac, RoomPerfect and MARS.

That being the case, how come all these Signal Processors cause a slight deterioration in the top end sparkle? Use DSPs with high quality speakers where you should expect an exciting rendition of the music (goosebump factor perhaps) and concentrate your listening at the top end. My experience is always that a little of this goosebump factor is lost when a filter is engaged, despite the DSP not being able to adjust these high frequencies. The reason - the ENTIRE frequency range is subjected to the processor's circuit, and it suffers slightly as a consequence. As I suggested in my post, best to avoid any unnecessary processing of the signal. I can easily demonstrate this reduction in top end sparkle on my own speakers when a Dirac filter is engaged and restored when disengaged. Try this test youself if you have great speakers.

The only wat around this problem is by using active spealers where the bass driver alone (pehaps the mid too) is fed via an amp with DSP. Or with bi-amped passive speakers where the bass amp only has DSP.

 

[Oddball]

Lots of feedback from the Storm community in the Storm Forums... I would refer you to the very very long thread here:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/stormaudio-processors-official-thread.3152188/#replies

Lots of good experience with ART in there.

However - the Storm platform has substantial ability to tune/tweak in addition to and on top of ART.... nevertheless there is a heap of excellent experience with ART that has been published on there.

Thanks. I try not to use AVS unless there is no other way. Been there, done that, moved on...

And honestly, as I noted in many threads, I find ART completely idiot proof in my system. Whatever I do or don't do it sounds great. And if I flatten the bass curve to +/- 1dB, it sounds all the same as the +/- 1.5dB one I get for free. There is some work to be done in determining the curtains, if any, but that is room/preference/system specific, so not something I can copycat.

Storm does have PEQ filters you can do before ART and then tone controls on top of it. The first one might be needed in some cases, but then lots of people can do that with sub DSP nowadays. Tone controls would be higher on my priority list for D&M as sometimes could be an easy fix for titles that have cinema roll off for highs. They have it with Audy, so hopefully they will be able to make it work with ART as well. More filters? More is always better, but I do manage with 94 on AV10 - and that is 9.4.4 system.

 

[kawauso]

Thanks. I try not to use AVS unless there is no other way. Been there, done that, moved on...

And honestly, as I noted in many threads, I find ART completely idiot proof in my system. Whatever I do or don't do it sounds great. And if I flatten the bass curve to +/- 1dB, it sounds all the same as the +/- 1.5dB one I get for free. There is some work to be done in determining the curtains, if any, but that is room/preference/system specific, so not something I can copycat.

Storm does have PEQ filters you can do before ART and then tone controls on top of it. The first one might be needed in some cases, but then lots of people can do that with sub DSP nowadays. Tone controls would be higher on my priority list for D&M as sometimes could be an easy fix for titles that have cinema roll off for highs. They have it with Audy, so hopefully they will be able to make it work with ART as well. More filters? More is always better, but I do manage with 94 on AV10 - and that is 9.4.4 system.

Exactly! If tone controls could be used with Dirac on Denon/Marantz, it would make life much easier for many people. Especially when using curtains to correct only the low frequencies, there’s no way to tweak the highs at all. I’ve sent that request to D&M several times, but nothing has changed so far — even though it seems like it would be simple to implement.

 

[Oddball]

Exactly! If tone controls could be used with Dirac on Denon/Marantz, it would make life much easier for many people. Especially when using curtains to correct only the low frequencies, there’s no way to tweak the highs at all. I’ve sent that request to D&M several times, but nothing has changed so far — even though it seems like it would be simple to implement.

Yeah, let's see how responsive they will be with the ownership change. Hope that these requests don't need to go to Seoul for approval

 

[kawauso]

Yeah, let's see how responsive they will be with the ownership change. Hope that these requests don't need to go to Seoul for approval

Going to Korea sounds great We’ll have to try samgyetang and ganjang gejang while we’re there!

 

[FireEmblem]

No they can't! It's to enclosure modeling to get there (with resonance cost and sound stage with it) and that ain't something easy to do or do it yourself.

Even my Superlux HD681 which did cost $30 can extend all the way down. I tried it with a sinus wave generator. There's plenty of low end even at 20Hz. They go down to 10.

 

[pablolie]

There seems to be a bit of a collective obsession about the 20Hz even in this forum. To me, it is all about *how* you get to things and how balanced the entire package is. I am not claiming no one else cares about the entire delivery, it's just we seem to collectively obsess about certain performance corner cases that should just be one of many, many other considerations.

PS: Personally, I could not care less about ever hearing 20Hz again, I'd trade that anytime for a consistent, clean delivery from 40-17k. But also glad I don't have to do that.


PS2: Clearly, I am ecstatic about my 48 hour old upgrade, I am just here listening and loving the music. Just can't seem to put the headphones down. And that's what this is all about for me.

 

[Chrispy]

There seems to be a bit of a collective obsession about the 20Hz even in this forum. To me, it is all about *how* you get to things and how balanced the entire package is. I am not claiming no one else cares about the entire delivery, it's just we seem to collectively obsess about certain performance corner cases that should just be one of many, many other considerations.

PS: Personally, I could not care less about ever hearing 20Hz again, I'd trade that anytime for a consistent, clean delivery from 40-17k. But also glad I don't have to do that.


PS2: Clearly, I am ecstatic about my 48 hour old upgrade, I am just here listening and loving the music. Just can't seem to put the headphones down. And that's what this is all about for me.

View attachment 495650

While I like to get as low as I can, and there's not a lot at 20hz, I think 40hz misses too much. I just accommodate it with setup, if it's there, great, if not, it's not.

ps The mention of "all the way down" doesn't mean much

 

[Sjkrabbe]

I have no space for a sub in my small sitting room - AND my B&W 805s runs down to around 35Hz at the -6dB point. So in the dayly life I don´t miss a sub

 

[Chanur]

I prefer to listen to my music with out subs. I just think it sounds more natural. The exception would be heavy electronic based music, then subs are fine.

 

[dlaloum]

I prefer to listen to my music with out subs. I just think it sounds more natural. The exception would be heavy electronic based music, then subs are fine.

I have almost invariably had the same preference (music without subs) - but I also believe that with proper integration, I believe there is potential for a setup that can improve on both... (music and movies) hence I will shortly be trying Dirac ART, see whether that can do it.

Certainly for music in my current setup (with Dirac Live) the sub really does nothing - I have my mains running full range

 

[kyuu]

I prefer to listen to my music with out subs. I just think it sounds more natural. The exception would be heavy electronic based music, then subs are fine.

I can understand this if the subs aren't integrated well or if you don't have room correction. But well-integrated subs with room correction can't do anything but enhance the sound (for any instrument that is playing low enough for it to be relevant, of course).

 

[ZolaIII]

Even my Superlux HD681 which did cost $30 can extend all the way down. I tried it with a sinus wave generator. There's plenty of low end even at 20Hz. They go down to 10.

They do little better in bass than HD668B but brighter so they don't sound fuller and bass quality (high distortion) really isn't there. It's semi open design and modifying holes will get you there but like I said it won't resolve problems (in this case seen at 4 KHz). If it makes you happy there are 20$ and cheaper IEM's which really can do all bass they need and good or even more they should which you dile down with EQ. My HD668B picks dust on attic even still in usable state. The bass sensation between headphones and speakers with sub's is very different in many ways. Let's just say headphones don't sound convincing there and I mean all headphones even with added some wet reverb.

HD681

back to Superlux back to measurements home Published: May-15-2013, updated: Jan-2-2019 NO SMOOTHING is applied to the shown plots. Most measurement sites have some smoothing applied which ‘ir…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

 

[FireEmblem]

They do little better in bass than HD668B but brighter so they don't sound fuller and bass quality (high distortion) really isn't there. It's semi open design and modifying holes will get you there but like I said it won't resolve problems (in this case seen at 4 KHz). If it makes you happy there are 20$ and cheaper IEM's which really can do all bass they need and good or even more they should which you dile down with EQ. My HD668B picks dust on attic even still in usable state. The bass sensation between headphones and speakers with sub's is very different in many ways. Let's just say headphones don't sound convincing there and I mean all headphones even with added some wet reverb.

HD681

back to Superlux back to measurements home Published: May-15-2013, updated: Jan-2-2019 NO SMOOTHING is applied to the shown plots. Most measurement sites have some smoothing applied which ‘ir…

diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com

Tbh I never bought into this argument. Sure, subwoofer make you "feel" the bass in the room, but I still can feel pumping bass from the headphones. Superlux HD681 have so much bass that it almost feels like they're creating air pressure over your ears, and I don't think they have distortion either. Sinewaves roll as smooth and clean as it gets, there's not the smallest artifact present.

For reviewing low end I think it's helpful to just listen to a reference and you're good to go. So if you playback Seawall or Flight to LAPD by Hans Zimmer on the Superlux, and you know these have really powerful lowend, you know what the ceiling should sound like.

I've composed a musical demo for a company a while ago and utilized a patch from another sound designer, and there was so much low end under 50Hz in the Superlux HD681, that it just boomed all over the track. They did really well at highlighting this issue. It was like 3x as loud as the most shattering moments in the Blade Runner 2049 soundtrack.

 

[ZolaIII]

@FireEmblem start with basic how we perceive bass and amplitude to time compensation. Don't confuse quantity for quality and keep quality under control.
Those are fundamentals to ELC.
Tbh you can find in HD668B thread here and I don't deal with personal beliefs (God forbid) all good mesured and document perhaps.
Time/space domain can of course be discussed much more in depth but I bare not. Really no need for it.
Disclaimer; I ain't pro and counter, use both and still prefer speakers when I can.