How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why.....

[sigbergaudio]

And less ability to seat guests or walk across your living room.

Rick "gotta have room for the things where they need to be to be properly integrated" Denney

Well, everything's a compromise. It's often possible to put subs out of the way with good results. That being said I understand why not everyone would want to have them.

We offer systems that require subs and systems that are designed to not have subs, so I'm happy to agree with any side of the fence in this discussion.

 

[rdenney]

Some misleading characterizations in a few posts above.

The most often cited reason for subs at ASR for music isn't 20Hz performance. It's flat in-room response.

There are home theater where subs are great and 20Hz performance is important, and it's refreshing to hear about how to measure and set up subs for that application too.

There are people who listen to music all the time with sub-35Hz content. So it's also nice to have a site that helps with that application, rather than spread subwoofer nonsense.

Many of us, including people with no subs, get bass performance well below 35 Hz in-room, due to the room. Sometimes that doesn't sound good, and we have a choice to move speakers around to try to find a sweet spot, use EQ, or integrate subs. That most subs play to ~20Hz doesn't make the owners 20Hz fanatics, it might just mean they have the sub in a place that doesn't excite a room mode at 40Hz, freeing up the mains to play kick drum properly and tightly.

It's fine to not use subs. It's kind of silly to make it seem like owners of subs are bass heads, when so many here are trying to even out their room response.

Hmmm. By my arithmetic, a 40-Hz mode needs a linear dimension of 28 feet for the full waveform to develop and reflect in a self-reinforcing way. I'm not sure that's the problem most people have. I suspect greater problems are SBIR that causes nulls at higher frequencies, and subs are helpful in filling those so that the main speakers can be where the mids and tweeters need to be for sustaining the stereo image. My system has nulls at 53, 72 and 90 Hz, (in one channel or the other) because of reflective cancellation. There was little modal ring in my listening space, but if I had sufficiently large parallel reflecting surfaces, the lowest they could ring is 56 Hz, which is hard by a null in the orthogonal direction. People with 8-foot ceilings in typically small modern rooms might hearing ringing or echo at 140 Hz, but not at 40 Hz in most situations.

I like the idea of subs providing enough bass reinforcement that the smaller drivers in towers aren't pushed into distortion, though my towers retain pretty good linearity and fairly low distortion about as good as subs that could actually fit in my space.

And what recording these days has kick drums that aren't loaded down with digital reverb by the recording "engineer"?

Rick "has used subs when 1.) content needed it, 2.) main speakers couldn't play low, and 3.) they could physically coexist in the room with furniture and people" Denney

 

[MAB]

Hmmm. By my arithmetic, a 40-Hz mode needs a linear dimension of 28 feet for the full waveform to develop and reflect in a self-reinforcing way. I'm not sure that's the problem most people have. I suspect greater problems are SBIR that causes nulls at higher frequencies, and subs are helpful in filling those so that the main speakers can be where the mids and tweeters need to be for sustaining the stereo image. My system has nulls at 53, 72 and 90 Hz, (in one channel or the other) because of reflective cancellation. There was little modal ring in my listening space, but if I had sufficiently large parallel reflecting surfaces, the lowest they could ring is 56 Hz, which is hard by a null in the orthogonal direction. People with 8-foot ceilings in typically small modern rooms might hearing ringing or echo at 140 Hz, but not at 40 Hz in most situations.

I like the idea of subs providing enough bass reinforcement that the smaller drivers in towers aren't pushed into distortion, though my towers retain pretty good linearity and fairly low distortion about as good as subs that could actually fit in my space.

And what recording these days has kick drums that aren't loaded down with digital reverb by the recording "engineer"?

Rick "has used subs when 1.) content needed it, 2.) main speakers couldn't play low, and 3.) they could physically coexist in the room with furniture and people" Denney

My point was most people here seem to want smooth bass, not gobs of 20Hz earthquake.

At the end of that paragraph, I used my large basement as an example. It has modes low in frequency due to it's size, even then the room has it's first issue at ~40Hz.

You kind of ran with my example. The fact that all of our rooms have different dimensions and resonances doesn't change the observation that most people here with subs for music aren't looking for 20Hz effects bass (despite what was alluded above), they are trying to solve resonant issues with speakers in rooms.

 

[gnarly]

Hmmm. By my arithmetic, a 40-Hz mode needs a linear dimension of 28 feet for the full waveform to develop and reflect in a self-reinforcing way.

I think 40Hz only needs half that, or 14ft.
Doesn't first mode = 1130 ft/ 2L ? Half wave for resonance.

 

[MAB]

I think 40Hz only needs half that, or 14ft.
Doesn't first mode = 1130 ft/ 2L ? Half wave for resonance.

Yes, it doesn't really matter since the post and the math error are distractions from the point I was making: Many people want smooth bass, despite the room and the mains location in the room.

Here are the modes for the length of my basement.

That other post misses the point and doesn't change many people's desire for smooth bass. Nor does it solve the problem of mains placement vs. room modes, a common issue many people experience. Some people have much worse compromises and tradeoffs than I have to deal with. Getting rid of the room eliminates all of this, gives smooth

So that my point isn't lost in all of this confusion:

Some misleading characterizations in a few posts above.

The most often cited reason for subs at ASR for music isn't 20Hz performance. It's flat in-room response.

 

[xanalog]

Here are the modes for the length of my basement.

That other post misses the point and doesn't change many people's desire for smooth bass. Nor does it solve the problem of mains placement vs. room modes, a common issue many people experience. Some people have much worse compromises and tradeoffs than I have to deal with. Getting rid of the room eliminates all of this, gives smooth

Would you be able to provide the link for that app used for rooms/modes calculations?

A basement (closest to a 6-sided box) seems the easiest type to work the bugs out from.
Not so much; when it comes to 'open-floor' listening areas with many windows, doors, etc.

 

[MAB]

Would you be able to provide the link for that app used for rooms/modes calculations?

A basement (closest to a 6-sided box) seems the easiest type to work the bugs out from.
Not so much; when it comes to 'open-floor' listening areas with many windows, doors, etc.

It's REW (Room Equalization Wizard).
In the tools menu, they have a room sim.

 

[xanalog]

24 pages ago, @Jaxjax asked:

"How many on ASR don't runs subs of any kind.? & why....."

Do we have a member who is willing to crunch the numbers... if possible?

 

[Corvuscorone]

I use the HSU VTF-3 mk3 subwoofer with my large floorstanding speakers. I bought it used six years ago. It reproduces well below 20 Hz in the room. I read a few reviews online that praised the model. Especially its ability to reproduce very low frequencies of 15-40 Hz. It is mainly used with the TV in home theater, but also for listening to music. The effect sounds in movies are so great with the sub.

 

[krabapple]

Amir chimed in early here. He uses a sub in his HT but not in his music room. Has he ever measured the music room?

 

[olds1959special]

My living room setup has no subs anymore. The subs take up a lot of space, take some work to setup and calibrate, and are not as simple of a setup when employing the crossover. The reason I can do it is because my speakers have 10” radiators. But for those who use a single subwoofer setup and find bass localizable - I do the inverse, I added a high passed center speaker.

 

[dlaloum]

My living room setup has no subs anymore. The subs take up a lot of space, take some work to setup and calibrate, and are not as simple of a setup when employing the crossover. The reason I can do it is because my speakers have 10” radiators. But for those who use a single subwoofer setup and find bass localizable - I do the inverse, I added a high passed center speaker.

My main L/R have a 10" woofer - and the same theoretical bottom frequency as my sub - my surrounds have 4x 5" woofers and bottom F around 35Hz

I run them all full range, and with "Double Bass" (LFE distributed to the base layer full range speakers as well as to the sub) - I'm pretty sure I could run without the sub, and lose little or nothing.

 

[Waxx]

I did design and build dozens of subs for other, but for myself i like when the speaker itself goes loud enough to avoid a sub. My main (diy) system is tuned to 30Hz without dedicated subwoofer, and my office (diy) system goes to 40Hz without a sub in room. I still will build more subs, but both most used systems in my house actually don't need one for their purpose. I only can use extra subs to even out room modues (like Toole did), and that is probally what i'm going to do with the subs i have in mind building...

But do i need them, no, certainly not with my main setup, that goes loud and low enough for the neighbours to call the cops (with reason) so ...

 

[Digital_Thor]

The point in multiple subwoofers is the distribution of bass sources - including the mains, by taking advantage of room acoustics.
No matter how big your mains are, they can never truly do what subwoofers in a different location can do.

 

[Oddball]

The sub game has changed significantly as of late. Dirac ART software has been made available on D&M products and enthusiasts can now have 4 independent subs managed by ART for under $2K. For years this was available on Storm platforms that were usually north of $20K.

Integrating the subs was difficult in the past, even with Dirac Bass Control that was considered as most advanced in normal price range (we are not talking Trinnov here). From my experience it is really easy and almost idiot proof with ART. While some members are experiencing issues with ART or simply don't like the "dry" bass presentation, most of the early adopters seem to be really pleased. There are several threads re ART, most information is in the one below.

Active Room Treatment (ART) by Dirac

Having listened to the recording, I can say it's a fair approximation. I have, I've tried everything I can come up with (including independent adjustment of the subs). Nothing I've tried hints at any avenue for improvement in the character of the bass imposed by ART. I've approached my...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[levimax]

The point in multiple subwoofers is the distribution of bass sources - including the mains, by taking advantage of room acoustics.
No matter how big your mains are, they can never truly do what subwoofers in a different location can do.

The problem with multiple subs is mono bass, time domain issues, the inability to use linear phase crossovers, and being limited on crossover frequency. I prefer 2 co-located subs (or even better 2 real full range speakers ). While sharp dips in the LF response look bad on a graph they are not very audible. The other issues are to me more audible.

 

[goat76]

The problem with multiple subs is mono bass, time domain issues, the inability to use linear phase crossovers, and being limted on crossover frequency. I prefer 2 colated subs (or even better 2 real full range speakers ). While sharp dips in the LF response look bad on a graph they are not very audible. The other issue are to me more audible.

I have come to the same conclusion. To me, the best-sounding result I have had (and now have) is when I have my two subwoofers connected in a stereo configuration, and have them positioned close to the outside of each front left and right main loudspeaker. Even if it does not give me the flattest possible bass response, it is still the best bass sound I have ever achieved, as I can't hear the bass dips that can be seen in the measurements.

The result is a perfect seamless integration with the main speakers, and the subwoofers never reveal themself as separate speaker units, which seems to be a common problem for many people who apparently are struggling to get their subwoofers to integrate well with the main speakers. I don't know if the "true" acoustic time alignments of having the subwoofers close by each main speaker make an audible difference, maybe or maybe not. But what I'm quite sure of is that I, by a large margin, prefer the sound of stereo bass.

 

[Oddball]

Some ART graphs - mine are not really that great as multi purpose room. But integrating subs is no longer a science or a mystic art.

The last one is with ART, but with subs turned off so it shows how ART treats the bed layer speakers.

 

[tmtomh]

I have a pair of Genelec 8351b's, with no subs. My reasons for no subs are pretty simple - though I want to stress that I am not arguing that these reasons should guide anyone else's decisions, or anyone's views about best practices.

• I listen loud-ish but not super-loud, peak SPLs (per metering app) typically in the mid to high 80s;
• My room is not tiny but not large either, about 16x20 ft (5x6m);
• I have pretty decent measured in-room extension down into the 30s as-is;
• My main bass dip, caused by SBIR, is around 105Hz and very narrow (and not crazy deep) - I don't notice it in everyday listening, and I'm not very enthusiastic about the idea of crossing subs at a high enough frequency necessary to take care of that;
• And finally, I listen only to music, no movie explosions and such, and when I listen to music with a lot of lower bass energy, I get plenty of bass and while I'm sure some frequencies have longer decay times than others, I don't experience obvious resonances or annoying-sounding standing waves.

YMMV of course.

 

[Ropeburn]

But integrating subs is no longer a science or a mystic art.

Funny wording. It's definitely still a science and in this case literally an ART.