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How loud is loud, how to measure it? Is THX calibration bad for your health?

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sarumbear

sarumbear

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No, Just like the standard that you link clearly states, 85dBSPL with 20 dB of headroom.

infact the RMS of the center channel is often between -30 dBFS and -25dBFS. Many mixers actually mix significantly below the THX reference. In Europe you have to follow the EBU R 128, which is slightly quieter than the THX reference.
For the last time: 85dBSPL with 20 dB of headroom is the same as 85dBSPL at -20dBFS.

If you disagree on this I can only advise you to re-educate your self on digital levels. If you know that well and still want to argue that the two are different then I will bow out here.
 

abdo123

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For the last time: 85dBSPL with 20 dB of headroom is the same as 85dBSPL at -20dBFS.

If you disagree on this I can only advise you to re-educate your self on digital levels. If you know that well and still want to argue that the two are different then I will bow out here.

okay you're just flipping your statement with every comment.

For anyone else who is going to read the thread, most shows and movies are mixed significantly quieter than the THX reference, because they follow other references. not that the THX reference is unhealthy in anyway, it's just semantics at this point.

For example this is an epsiode of a reality TV show i was watching yesterday.

1639840059919.png
 
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AdamG

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@sarumbear, great topic and well presented. We don’t talk about this subject enough here and it’s far too easy to forget how fragile our hearing really is. Your points about Home Theaters usage time and the accumulated spl exposure is timely and valuable. Thank you for taking the time to research and contribute this to the ASR community. :cool:
 

DonH56

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OSHA 1910: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910#1910_Subpart_G
Specifically regarding noise exposure: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.95

Note OSHA is A-weighted to emulate the hearing sensitive of humans, and their guidance is basically to ensure (we hope) that in your old age you can follow conversations, not the nuances in full-range music. Recommendations I recall typically derate OSHA by 10~20 dB for more realistic levels. I personally find 80 dB (10 dB below the OSHA 8-hour spec) too loud for long listening sessions. Friends and articles/posts from those in the movie and music recording business tell me they rarely exceed 80 dB average during mixing and mastering.

When I run calibrations I usually leave the room.

YMMV - Don

Edit: Note these are average levels; peaks in music and movies can run 20 to 30 dB higher for brief peaks.
 
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sarumbear

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There are posters on this thread who think reference level is some sort of a maximum, hence the 85dBSPL reference level in a home theatre is not really a problem. Let's look at the data shall we?

Here is a 12 minutes section of the Dolby Pro track of the film Team America World Police (2004). You can clearly see that the soundtrack is routinely above the reference level and often 10dB over. That is why I used 95dBSPL to test film soundtrack levels.

1639849501745.png


The circles are at 10dB increments and the green to yellow transition is at -20dB LKFS. Measured with TC Electronics Loudness Meter.

There is an example post above which shows a waveform of a TV show soundtrack. It shows a figure of -26dB, which implies that the average level is 6dB below reference. Here lies the issue. Broadcasters have always stayed within the -20dBLUFS level. The reason is simple, TV production is only aimed for home use. However, films are different. They are always processed to cinema standards. Even Netflix films.

That is my point when I say your home theatre may not be good for your health. Not your TV, home theatre.
 
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Tom C

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Does anyone have any information on how these phone based apps compare to a calibrated SPL meter in terms of accuracy?
 
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sarumbear

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Does anyone have any information on how these phone based apps compare to a calibrated SPL meter in terms of accuracy?
They are almost Class 2. Please read the post. There is a paragraph explaining it.
 

dc655321

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Does anyone have any information on how these phone based apps compare to a calibrated SPL meter in terms of accuracy?

I use Decibel-X on iOS and recall it reporting within 2dB of what REW + umik-1 reported. The signal was ~90dB pink noise.
 

Beershaun

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In my measurement app on my phone I typically see -80db--75db A weighted as the peak for pink noise health and safety based volume measurements for my system. So that tells me that even when I'm playing my music pretty loud it's within reasonable in health and safety limits.

This is not the same thing as what my system is putting out full range nor does it indicate what my music playing requirements are when choosing things like amp power or spl.

So:
good idea to use a sound measurement app designed for measuring health and safety limits and record the peak levels A-weighted to make sure you know at what volume levels you system is safe to listen to for long periods of time.

Bad idea to use that same health and safety data to indicate what the requirements are for your system power and SPL. They are not interchangeable.
 
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sarumbear

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good idea to use a sound measurement app designed for measuring health and safety limits and record the peak levels A-weighted to make sure you know at what volume levels you system is safe to listen to for long periods of time.
Do not use A filtering. That is for measuring environmental noise. Music does not require weighing as unlike noise, music is a full spectrum sound. Filtering will skew your measurements.
Bad idea to use that same health and safety data to indicate what the requirements are for your system power and SPL. They are not interchangeable.
Correct. This post is only about the health aspect of loud audio playback.
 

BoredErica

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OSHA 1910: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910#1910_Subpart_G
Specifically regarding noise exposure: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/regulations/standardnumber/1910/1910.95

Note OSHA is A-weighted to emulate the hearing sensitive of humans, and their guidance is basically to ensure (we hope) that in your old age you can follow conversations, not the nuances in full-range music. Recommendations I recall typically derate OSHA by 10~20 dB for more realistic levels. I personally find 80 dB (10 dB below the OSHA 8-hour spec) too loud for long listening sessions. Friends and articles/posts from those in the movie and music recording business tell me they rarely exceed 80 dB average during mixing and mastering.

When I run calibrations I usually leave the room.

YMMV - Don

Edit: Note these are average levels; peaks in music and movies can run 20 to 30 dB higher for brief peaks.
I find anything above 65db(a) average too loud to be enjoyable. I just feel uncomfortable after that and my ears feel funny.

In terms of hearing loss throughout the hearing range and not just around frequencies around human speech, which frequencies should a person be worried about most for having any kind of hearing loss at all? Knowing that bass is louder to compensate for our hearing curves but also the fact that we can (probably) tolerate louder bass without hearing loss. Assuming that a person's music spans the whole hearing range and they have a regular downward tilt in in room response with speakers.
 

BoredErica

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audio2920

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Regarding the hearing damage aspect, I think there needs to be better data and laws regarding damage done by transient sounds. Most of the Health & Safety laws around the world are related to more continuous, industrial noise. Depending on where you are in the world, this typically means anything continuous over 85dBA is considered bad. What we experience in film isn't continuous, but can have very sudden dynamics and that's where the danger lies I think.

Although I'm a sound engineer not a medical expert, AFAIK the ear has two coping mechanisms (chemical and muscular) to fend off loud noise, both of which cope to some extent when noise builds up gradually, but are defeated by a instantaneous blast of 110dBC coming out of 40dBC "silence".

About 15 (OK maybe 20...:oops:) years ago I had to wear a noise dosimeter while mixing a loud action movie. We were typically working 12 hours a day. Often sitting on scenes approaching 110dBC. From a H&S perspective, they would say "no damage was done" because it's below the averaged action level, by law. I promise you, damage is done.

Anyway, regarding reference level.... I know I keep banging on about it on ASR but I just don't believe there is any such thing in home entertainment mixes. While THX may *say* reference level is -20dBFS=85dBC, that's completely irrelevant if the home ent mixes aren't done to the same reference to begin with. Which for the most part, they aren't. I don't recall ever being asked to do a home entertainment mix to THX reference. There are probably a few out there.

They're basically saying their reference is the same as Dolby Theatrical reference, hence if someone put the cinema mix out for consumer use, and you set the AVR to 0, it would be the same level as in a cinema with the cinema processor set to "85" or "Fader 7" in Dolby speak. While that's commendable to some extent, almost no one is putting out content like that any more. As much as it's a shame for Home Theater owners, a (cinema) wide dynamic mix is not going to be acceptable for the majority people at home; complaints like "I couldn't hear the dialog" and "I had to reach for the volume control" being common with such material. We have no delivery method where the end user can select a different audio track based on their dynamics preferences. As such, the home ent mix is usually some sort of compromise for best fit.

Netflix give public visibility of their home entertainment spec, which is in the same ballpark as most others, but also quite clearly written compared to most tech specs :D: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios....-Atmos-Home-Mix-Deliverable-Requirements-v2-1

Theirs is a dual pronged attack, a mix level of 79 or 82 (recommended, I sometimes use as low as 77 depending on content). BUT having done the mix if you're off target loudness of -27LKFS dialog gated, the whole mix needs to be turned up or down to hit target. At which point, your "reference" level changes by an equal and opposite amount. Typically once you're used to a certain spec you can get to within about a dB of it by ear, but even so, you can see the range of "reference" for Netflix alone is going to be 77 to 83 ish.

I will say that sometimes there's a separate Blu-Ray mix, but many of the big players now use just two mixes; a Theatrical mix for cinema release and a nearfield mix for everything else (Disc, VOD, broadcast)

Lastly, just to be clear, the fact we call reference "85dB" or whatever is a totally arbitrary number to facilitate replay gain alignment / unification. Nothing about a mix is anchored to a reference SPL. We don't have any meters that show us this level while we mix.

This was all a very long winded way of saying, if you're hitting 105dBC/channel with a modern HE mix, the chances are you're listening a lot louder than it was mixed.
 

audio2920

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Actually, I'm sorry I've kinda strayed off topic but since it's related, after all that, let me just give a real world example:

I recently finished a theatrical mix for a mainstream distributor, mixed at 85dB in a big room, and then I did the nearfield mix to their home entertainment specifications of ATSC A/85, -24LKFS, -2dBTP. This is a typical TV spec, so fairly low dynamic, but in a lot of cases this is the *only* mix distributed to the consumer market. From memory, the theatrical mix measured -28LKFS and had a peak of +2.3dBTP(fs). Thus, the nearfield required a minimum dynamics reduction of 8.3dB compared to the cinema release, in order for peaks to be within spec while meeting the average loudness requirement.

i.e. turn it up 4dB to hit target loudness, resulting in peaks of +6.3dBTP and then squash those down to -2dBTP. (It's not quite that simple, but for illustration of dynamics difference, it's close enough.)

Hence, if transient peak SPL in the cinema was (for example) 107dBC, it's now down to 99dBC if the meat of the mix (e.g. dialog) is replayed around the same level we had in the cinema.
 

Balle Clorin

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I do not go to movie theaters any more. The sound is unbearable load. The last movie i saw was the
Lion King, it was so load that I wanted to leave, but I sat with my fingers in my ears most if the time . For the same reason I do not like Concerts, if I go I use earplugs.
 
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sarumbear

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Regarding the hearing damage aspect, I think there needs to be better data and laws regarding damage done by transient sounds. Most of the Health & Safety laws around the world are related to more continuous, industrial noise. Depending on where you are in the world, this typically means anything continuous over 85dBA is considered bad. What we experience in film isn't continuous, but can have very sudden dynamics and that's where the danger lies I think.

Although I'm a sound engineer not a medical expert, AFAIK the ear has two coping mechanisms (chemical and muscular) to fend off loud noise, both of which cope to some extent when noise builds up gradually, but are defeated by a instantaneous blast of 110dBC coming out of 40dBC "silence".

About 15 (OK maybe 20...:oops:) years ago I had to wear a noise dosimeter while mixing a loud action movie. We were typically working 12 hours a day. Often sitting on scenes approaching 110dBC. From a H&S perspective, they would say "no damage was done" because it's below the averaged action level, by law. I promise you, damage is done.
True, but thankfully, at least in EU and in the UK, they have started using music as the source in their research. Early days but it is a start.
Anyway, regarding reference level.... I know I keep banging on about it on ASR but I just don't believe there is any such thing in home entertainment mixes. While THX may *say* reference level is -20dBFS=85dBC, that's completely irrelevant if the home ent mixes aren't done to the same reference to begin with. Which for the most part, they aren't. I don't recall ever being asked to do a home entertainment mix to THX reference. There are probably a few out there.

They're basically saying their reference is the same as Dolby Theatrical reference, hence if someone put the cinema mix out for consumer use, and you set the AVR to 0, it would be the same level as in a cinema with the cinema processor set to "85" or "Fader 7" in Dolby speak. While that's commendable to some extent, almost no one is putting out content like that any more. As much as it's a shame for Home Theater owners, a (cinema) wide dynamic mix is not going to be acceptable for the majority people at home; complaints like "I couldn't hear the dialog" and "I had to reach for the volume control" being common with such material. We have no delivery method where the end user can select a different audio track based on their dynamics preferences. As such, the home ent mix is usually some sort of compromise for best fit.

Netflix give public visibility of their home entertainment spec, which is in the same ballpark as most others, but also quite clearly written compared to most tech specs :D: https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios....-Atmos-Home-Mix-Deliverable-Requirements-v2-1
If the nearfield mix is expected to be monitored at 82dB then the difference to theatrical reference level is just 3dB below. It makes hardly a difference to the issue I am trying to point attention to.
Lastly, just to be clear, the fact we call reference "85dB" or whatever is a totally arbitrary number to facilitate replay gain alignment / unification. Nothing about a mix is anchored to a reference SPL. We don't have any meters that show us this level while we mix.
Your monitor system is calibrated to the reference level and you mix to that reference level. Otherwise why those numbers even exist? In other words you adjust the mix so that the soundtrack is heard as the the director wants. Please look at the loudness level of the soundtrack of the film Dune. Someone has mixed to -11 LUFS. You cannot tell me that is not loud?
This was all a very long winded way of saying, if you're hitting 105dBC/channel with a modern HE mix, the chances are you're listening a lot louder than it was mixed.
It was indeed. You have agreed with the point I was making, at the end :)
 

audio2920

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@sarumbear Sorry that came across as disagreement! I realise now how that seemed. I was just going off my normal rant about how reference doesn't apply at home. :p

I totally 100% agree that cinema mixes are sometimes too loud.
If the nearfield mix is expected to be monitored at 82dB then the difference to theatrical reference level is just 3dB below. It makes hardly a difference to the issue I am trying to point attention to.
True, but as well as typically being 3 to 6dB down in replay gain, the nearfield track itself is probably a good 3 or 4dB down in terms of peak. i.e. a cinema mix can have "true peaks" above 0dBFS (and typically +1 to +3dB is not uncommon on loud films) a home ent mix will typically be limited at between -1 and -3dBTP. Basically, I'm just saying to play a home mix at a solid level (79, 82, whatever) you shouldn't typically be experiencing peaks over about 100dBC. Of course you can crank it if you want, but you'll be listening louder than the home ent mixer did.

Your monitor system is calibrated to the reference level and you mix to that reference level. Otherwise why those numbers even exist? In other words you adjust the mix so that the soundtrack is heard as the the director wants. Please look at the loudness level of the soundtrack of the film Dune. Someone has mixed to -11 LUFS. You cannot tell me that is not loud?
I didn't articulate this very well. Sometimes people seem to think "85dB" means something about the mix plays at 85dBC. I don't understand what exactly. I was merely pointing out that the fact we describe Dolby's calibrated reference level as "85" is numerically arbitrary and unrelated to the content. It has historical relevance, but it could have been any number. As you've already pointed out, all that actually matters is the maximum level is 105dBC/channel.

I've never seen Dune, but if that's the theatrical cinema release that measures -11LUFS, that does sound like it would be utterly brutal in a cinema at full level.

But ultimately, yes, I'd absolutely love it if films could be capped to be a few dB less crazy than they've become, but while not restricting a few bits of transient content here and there such that we're running through limiters just to meet spec.
 
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sarumbear

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Sometimes people seem to think "85dB" means something about the mix plays at 85dBC. I don't understand what exactly. I was merely pointing out that the fact we describe Dolby's calibrated reference level as "85" is numerically arbitrary and unrelated to the content.
I disagree. 85dB is how you set your volume. It’s a calibration level. Once the volume is set you mix with your ears and with guidance of a loudness/peak meter. You mix to a feeling. You don’t mix to a level. The feeling is set with the calibration.
 
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