How loud do my speakers need to go?

[BradSteen]

I'm wondering if anyone might be able to share some thoughts on this. I've got a 9.1.4 home theater setup in a room measuring 19x15x7.2ft using QSC speakers. I'm thinking about moving to an active speaker setup as I'm looking at converting my room into a dual-purpose room to be able to use as a home theatre and also to do some mixing/Dolby Atmos work.

I see a lot of talk on forums and videos about the importance of having 'reference capable' speakers capable of 105db at the main listening position. There are many speakers that claim to be capable of this but without declaring distortion levels at their max SPL. I've been considering the Neumann KH range of speakers as these seem to measure very well in the reviews on ASR. Technically, they should be able to reach reference for me in my room; however, how important is the ability to hit 105db at the main listening position?

Just wondering if anyone has any experience or thoughts on the importance of 'reference' capable speakers? It seems to be the LCR are more critical, at least from my own home theater experience.

 

[mj30250]

How "important" it is is really up to you. How loudly do you want to listen? Reference level is at its core, a reference (/captain obvious). It's not a requirement for cinematic enjoyment nor is it meant to replicate real world volume levels. Also, keep in mind, 105dB is not an average, it's the headroom required of your mains for occasional transient peaks. Additionally, most material isn't mixed to reach 105dB beyond bass frequencies, so in a bass managed system, the vast majority of those big difficult spikes would be redirected to your subwoofers, which means you may be able to get away with smaller, less volume-capable main speakers.

My suggestion would be to first determine how loudly you actually want your system to go safely and without audible distortion. You can then begin calculating a given speaker's ability to reach those levels based on your listening distance, available power, proximity to boundaries, and (hopefully) available distortion measurements. For bass specifically, it's also important to look at the overall cubic volume of your room, particularly if you are looking for a more tactile experience when things explode and such.

 

[kyuu]

Is your mixing work for multichannel movie soundtracks? That's where the Dolby/THX reference level of 105dB applies. As already stated, that's for dynamic peaks not average level. 105dB average level would be insane, even 85dB average (allowing 20dB for peaks) is really freaking loud and few people actually listen that loudly. So if you're mixing multichannel movie soundtracks, then you probably want to be able to hit that peak level to check your mix at reference. If it's anything else, it's the wild west and you don't have to worry about how your mix sounds at unrealistic volumes.

 

[ZolaIII]

Reference calibration point is 85/88 dB mono/stereo white noise (for music DR 20 max) to listening point. It's more for TXH as so it's DR (24 dB) for it. You don't really need that much as that's for large cinemas nor will you get there with commercial speakers (HiFi, home, monitors). We come to conclusion that most folks don't go over 72~76 dB program + DR to it for true peeks and little more for bottom octave for ELC. So with theoretical 24 dB DR for TXH you will be fine with peeks of 96~100 dB in most situations. If you really want to overblow things go with second hand big (15" or 2x15" and large tweeters) JBL* TXH cinema one's, they aren't that expensive.

 

[BradSteen]

Thanks every for the replies. So at the moment my room is really a dedicated home theater and listening environment. It's a hobby of mine, but I have an opportunity to start doing some Dobly Atmos music mixing. I haven't really done much recording/audio work in the last decade, although it was something I did mainly as a hobby/part-time job and should be good fun learning something new. This has come about mainly as I know quite a few musicians personally with studios that do not have the facility to mix or monitor Dolby Atmos music. Many are just using headphones and kind of hoping for the best!

At the moment, I have commercial cinema QSC speakers in the theatre. They have done well for me for the last 3 years, but are big and bulky, and I'm keen to look at moving to an all active setup and turn the room into a more hybrid type of environment. One that I can continue to use as a home theatre and music listening room (mainly Dolby Atmos), but also use to do some work.

I have plenty of subs configured with a mini dsp handling the low end so that's taken care of. Just did a quick test with some 2 channel music and an SPL meter C weighted (subs off but still crossed over) and found I didn't really like it above about 90db at 2.3m. That would indicate to me that the Neumann KH120 would be sufficient as they claim a max short term SLP at 2.3m of 104 dbl (C) when used with Subs.

 

[Oddball]

As noted, Dolby reference specs are 85dB average and 105dB peaks for all channels except LFE. LFE is 95dB average and 115dB peaks. As I understand, the mix should be done at those reference levels. Looks like you would be able to do it with Neumann's and then you noted that subs are also capable so hopefully capable of going to 115dB with reasonable distortion and 95dB with low distortion.

Another thing to think about is room EQ. That is widely used and seems like Dirac is the choice for many common AVR brands.

 

[Waxx]

when i build speakers for an average room myself my goal is 102dB/1m clean sound from the drivers. I select my woofers to meet that on xmax. It's in reality overkill becasue mostly you won't go above 80dB RMS, but then you are sure your speakers have headroom. It's an unofficial norm in diy land.

THX ratings goes 3dB louder, but count only peak. But if you want a clean peak, your drivers need to go that far without going over xmax or overheat/overpower the coil.

For commercial speakers it's hard to tell because you don't get specs like xmax and sensivity. You only got a watt number that is not even specified as peak or rms watt. That is why THX rating can be handy, as they are tested to get that rating and so you're sure that the speakers is better than you probally need on that level. So that is what i would suggest.

Btw: volume limits in Belgium for nightclubs is 100 dB(A) LAeq, 60 min at loudest, many bars need to stay way below it (depends on the licence). The same limit counts for music festivals, of which we have thousands in our small country, and that includes Rock Werchter and Tomorrowland (the two most known).

 

[kemmler3D]

how important is the ability to hit 105db at the main listening position?

As others have said it's a matter of taste, but if you are planning on doing mixes, it might be more important to have that capability.

As you're probably aware, a steady 85dB is pretty loud (IMO) and going much louder risks hearing damage.

Depending on which Neumann speakers you go to from the QSC you might be losing a lot of headroom (KH80, KH120) or not much at all (KH420).

 

[smygolf]

One thing that is easy to forget is the room.
Going above 95dB in a normal room can be painfull due to reflections.

My own setup handles reference lvl without any issues and i have a RT60 ~0,2sec down to Schröder freq
And it can dangerous, it is much louder then you think and you do not really notice it.

 

[GXAlan]

I think it’s important to protect your ears, so the *need* for reference level is low. That said, if you are doing Atmos mixing for money, I think it is worthwhile to have a setup that accurately lets you assess reference level.

That is ONCE you have your audio setup for reference level, you may never send anything greater than -10 dBFS, so you never hit more than 95 dBC real world. You may even choose to listen to movies with 85 dBC peaks, etc.

If your speakers only hit 100 dB, you might mix at -5 dBFS and then at the very end of the deliverable, make it -10 dBFS…. But if you forget to do that or your speaker starts to implement compression/speaker protection then it may affect the real world performance in a theater.

So the value of having a home theater hit reference level is higher when you are mixing than it is for consumption of Atmos.

If you look at the KH420, it cannot do 106 dB at 1 m. So as you extend out to 3m, you don’t hit reference level, etc.

 

[BradSteen]

Thanks, all very helpful answers. I've decided to order a pair of the small KH80 just to do some personal tests to see how loud these actually play in my room. Being the smallest of the series I'm not expecting extreme volumes! I'll either keep them with a plan to use these for overheads or return them if they don't seem appropriate. The Klippel measurments of the KH80/120/150 all look fantastic with the main difference being the low end and max SPL.

 

[mns3dhm]

I’d encourage you to download an app that monitors peak and average SPL and keep it running while you’re listening to music for a few days. You’ll quickly discern how loud your actual listening levels are. Knowing the maximum SPL capability of your speakers is worth noting, but the vast majority of users do not listen at levels anywhere near that volume. As noted herein, doing so will degrade your hearing permanently. There’s a reason airline employees working on the airport tarmac wear hearing protection.

 

[teashea]

Thanks, all very helpful answers. I've decided to order a pair of the small KH80 just to do some personal tests to see how loud these actually play in my room. Being the smallest of the series I'm not expecting extreme volumes! I'll either keep them with a plan to use these for overheads or return them if they don't seem appropriate. The Klippel measurments of the KH80/120/150 all look fantastic with the main difference being the low end and max SPL.

It certainly is true that for regular stereo mixing and mastering, Neumann's are excellent. (I have seven pairs in my studio). But as mentioned above, for home theater / loud work, I don't think these are the ticket. They simply are not designed for this. They are designed as nearfield studio monitors.

 

[Ktacos]

You don't need high SPL for mixing, you just need the SPL you're comfortable working at. There are plenty of tools to analyze loudness.

 

[teashea]

You don't need high SPL for mixing, you just need the SPL you're comfortable working at. There are plenty of tools to analyze loudness.

very true.

 

[tw 2022]

i'd just suggest having your set up be able to go as loud as *you* need it to with low enough distortion that you are still happy with the results.. the cheaper the better... it'll give you more capital for sub/ center/ surround upgrades later...

 

[BradSteen]

So I decided to order a pair of the KH80 to test out. The plan was either to return them or to keep them for overhead duties in the future. They arrived yesterday afternoon and I've managed to do some listening and testing. They sound fantastic! I've got them dialled in with my subs (REW and minidsp) and it's quite remarkable how loud they can play. I don't typically listen to stereo music above -8 on my Marantz receiver but these got to -2.5 before the limiter kicked in. That's with me sitting 3m from the speakers.

These are just £400 per speaker in the UK, and with subs, they sound incredible for the price. This is the first time I've bought a speaker based on measurement data and it's great to experience this kind of audio quality.