• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

How long before the ShenzhenAudio boys take a crack at HT processors?

Dougey_Jones

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
552
Likes
460
I see absolutely no reason why SMSL, Topping, or any of the other brands from Shenzhen couldn't piece together the parts necessary to make a well measuring HT preamp/processor. It's literally all off the shelf stuff these days with the execution being the sticking point. Denon seems to be best in class at the moment in being able to assemble these features into a high performing product, but why not others?
 

Senior NEET Engineer

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
538
Likes
591
Location
San Diego
Topping DX3 Pro is my only electronic device that failed in last 10 years. No thanks.
 

NDRQ

Active Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2018
Messages
178
Likes
247
Topping DX3 Pro is my only electronic device that failed in last 10 years. No thanks.

That means nothing, i had a Sony phone that failed after half year, but also had a Sony TV that 4 years old and works flawlessly. Also my Playstation 2 and 3 still working. I had no problem with the brand, its just natural that stuffs failing sometimes.
 

beeface

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
321
Likes
773
People have their anecdotes about a certain brand's product failing on them. Everyone has their their right to whinge, but until these reports reach a critical mass, they don't carry much weight for me.

It's literally all off the shelf stuff these days with the execution being the sticking point.

My understanding of the AVR world is that the biggest hurdle for new entrants is securing the licensing for all the standards from Dolby et al.

Denon seems to be best in class at the moment in being able to assemble these features into a high performing product, but why not others?

If this is based on ASR's measurements, something I've noted is that for whatever reason, D&M products are easily the most well-represented here.

By my count, 35 units have been measured. 12 are Denon or Marantz units, 5 are Pioneer or Onkyo units and 1 is a Yamaha unit. If I look at the AVRs that are sold at my local stores, most of them (particularly the affordable ones) haven't been measured yet. Obviously it takes time and money to measure these devices, so I'm certainly not being critical of Amir, but unfortunately as a consumer I still don't think we have a very good idea of what the best affordable receivers are.
 

FrantzM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 12, 2016
Messages
4,339
Likes
7,739
Could be the cost of licensing of all those proprietary technologies we take for granted. I think those companies have the engineering and manufacturing chops to pull stellar-measuring AVRs.
I would think the MonoPrice 16 channels PrePro springs from the area. It is however dear at over $3500.
 
Last edited:

Wombat

Master Contributor
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
6,722
Likes
6,459
Location
Australia
Asking them, rather than us, would be better.
 
Joined
Nov 25, 2020
Messages
56
Likes
233
A few years back Music Group (Behringer) was going to roll out HT gear,

I saw the web page--they had specs and everything. Then, it vanished without a trace. ???? Music Group also owns LABGruppen, Merlin (?) Tannoy and other pro brands so it would not be hard for them to break in. However, they pulled their claws back in and stayed out of the consumer market.

The largest audio company in the world, Harman/Samsung does not exactly go after AVRs and processors. They obviously have all their ducks in a row on the pro side, no problem with 9 channel soundbars but it's not like I see any Harman Kardon AVRs or anything of substance from them. Wonder why?

I did find a USB powered 5.1 processor for around $32 a few years back--they do exist so the Chinese can and will do it when it becomes a money maker. After all, they are dead center in the largest market for audio on the planet and when billions want something, I'm sure they will provide. The last time I checked, sending lunar landers to the moon, building supersonic stealth aircraft, nuclear power plants, being competive in call phones and building super computers is just a wee bit harder than AVRs. Don't kid yourself!

Mix Music Group pulling out before they jumped in and Harman/Samsung not really being worried about the consumer AVR market--that means something else. Why waste time, effort and money going after a market that is flat? I get it, they want to make money so go after the growth areas and HT is not one of those areas! Sound bars? Smart speakers? Blutooth? Car audio and nav? Sure, that is where the money is at so I'd say it's a profit thing.

I did see that HK released a new 2.1 amplifier that is very small, has all the goodies and was NOT released in the US. It is in the UK but maybe eventually make it to the US...maybe. They even went with the name Citation but it has nothing to do with the big hair amps of yore. The absolute opposite as it is Class D, full DSP, streaming etc. and not marketed to be "retro".

Something to ponder...
 

watchnerd

Grand Contributor
Joined
Dec 8, 2016
Messages
12,449
Likes
10,409
Location
Seattle Area, USA
I see absolutely no reason why SMSL, Topping, or any of the other brands from Shenzhen couldn't piece together the parts necessary to make a well measuring HT preamp/processor. It's literally all off the shelf stuff these days with the execution being the sticking point. Denon seems to be best in class at the moment in being able to assemble these features into a high performing product, but why not others?

IP isn't parts.
 

Vasr

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
1,409
Likes
1,923
1. AVRs are company-killers.
2. Not their core competence. Will take more than a year (if not more) to catch up to even miniDSP levels of experience integrating DSPs and writing extensive firmware. No video experience.
3. Not practical to do direct sales for heavy equipment. No experience in channel sales. No customer support network. Very little experience in creating necessary documentation and original UX for complex devices.
4. There are already established companies in Chinese HiFi markets doing this like ToneWinner to have a ready domestic market and companies that do white-labeled products for international markets.
5. They will not be price-competitive with mass-market AVRs.
6. They have a good niche market that they do very well in. Why lose focus?

If someone brings out an "AVR SoC" that just requires a great implementation board for the reference design, they can churn out a box quickly. But will be stymied by marketing/sales needed.
 
OP
Dougey_Jones

Dougey_Jones

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Forum Donor
Joined
May 27, 2020
Messages
552
Likes
460
Lotta good feedback in here. I wasn’t suggesting that they should make AVRs. Just that they could probably make a high performance processor with 9.2ch balanced output as most of the DSP and licensed tech can’t be THAT expensive otherwise nobody would be in this business.

If Best Buy can sell AVRs under the Insignia brand name, it can’t be that hard to buy and assemble HDMI boards and a DSP SoC with 8-11 channels of DACs.
 

Sancus

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 30, 2018
Messages
2,923
Likes
7,616
Location
Canada
By far the biggest challenge with an AVR is software, which is orders of magnitude more complex than that in a basic DAC or amp.

In addition, as far as I'm aware, margins are poor to nonexistent. Some Japanese brands have continued their AVR production even at a loss merely for prestige reasons, as I understand it.

Doesn't really seem like a market that it would be wise to enter, tbh.
 

ShadowFiend

Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2020
Messages
69
Likes
89
Lotta good feedback in here. I wasn’t suggesting that they should make AVRs. Just that they could probably make a high performance processor with 9.2ch balanced output as most of the DSP and licensed tech can’t be THAT expensive otherwise nobody would be in this business.

If Best Buy can sell AVRs under the Insignia brand name, it can’t be that hard to buy and assemble HDMI boards and a DSP SoC with 8-11 channels of DACs.
The Chinese manufactures can make it technically, but market does not permit them to follow that direction.
As you probably know, the most targeting market right now is Asia (China, Korea, Southeast Asia, India). At those country, and even in Europe, people generally live in a smaller house/apartment compared to US. So very few can afford a space to built 9.2ch system and the market for Mch device is small compared to something like soundbar. It is even smaller than market for stereo system. So manufactures must make products like AVR to survive as AVR contains amplifier which can be attracting to normal customer. But built an congested system in small box like an AVR will always cause compromise in performance technically. The Pre/Processor is even less popular for normal customer as they need an Mch-amplifier to complete the system, so they must be sell at much higher price to cover the cost. And the higher price leads to even less sale since less people are capable of pay that money.
 

Vasr

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 27, 2020
Messages
1,409
Likes
1,923
If Best Buy can sell AVRs under the Insignia brand name, it can’t be that hard to buy and assemble HDMI boards and a DSP SoC with 8-11 channels of DACs.

Best Buy doesn't buy and assemble. They put their name over a white-labeled box made by ToneWinner or some other ODM/OEM. These ODMs amortize their costs over multiple such brand channels and have the investments and experience in making such products. Best Buy gets their margins because of their marketing and sales channels.

Putting an AVR or even a pre/pro together is a significant amount of investment in time and money for a market that is commoditized. Unless you bring something truly unique or disruptive (no not just high SINAD even if that were possible).
 

Phorize

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 26, 2019
Messages
1,533
Likes
2,060
Location
U.K
I’ll speculate further, when the money is rolling in quite nicely selling an established range of products, sold internationally direct to consumer at scale and at prices that facilitate replacement everytime a new iteration is released, why take on the financial risk of a more complex product that would cost more and therefore be in use longer, and have to take business away from Denon or another major player to do it. I think the result would be something akin to MacGregor vs Mayweather, but where Mayweather had not agreed to leave the MMA fighter conscious beyond the first round to maximise revenue.
 

fyonn

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2020
Messages
10
Likes
4
My understanding of the AVR world is that the biggest hurdle for new entrants is securing the licensing for all the standards from Dolby et al.

This might be a silly question, but how big a hurdle is this? there are open source implementations of surround sound decoders that could be used surely, and meridian famously wrote their own DD and DTS decoders and I believe their processors use them to this day (at least for old school DD and DTS, they rely on source decoding for HD audio codecs now).

so how does ffmpeg do it, and could that kind of technology be used rather than official silicon?

I must admit, before a full av decoder comes out, a useful first step I think would be a processor that takes in HDMI and other inputs, and pulls out a stereo signal plus the LFE channel to be able either feed to a sub, or mix in with the mains. It's the big thing I think that stereo amps are missing when they add a HDMI-CEC input. the loss of the surround/centre channels aren't that big of a loss, but the LFE channel is a significant loss, and more to the point, is a place where you're actually losing real signal as the source device will just flat out drop the LFE channel rather than add it to the downmix.

Add a dirac room correction function and I would consider one...
 

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
This might be a silly question, but how big a hurdle is this? there are open source implementations of surround sound decoders that could be used surely, and meridian famously wrote their own DD and DTS decoders and I believe their processors use them to this day (at least for old school DD and DTS, they rely on source decoding for HD audio codecs now).

Pretty big. That's why they keep making new formats. No one's made an open source decoders for any of the "3D" height channel formats yet. Not sure about the "HD" formats.

If you're fine with 7.1 then an HTPC with a multichannel DAC will fulfill all your SINAD fantasies.
 

fyonn

Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2020
Messages
10
Likes
4
Pretty big. That's why they keep making new formats. No one's made an open source decoders for any of the "3D" height channel formats yet. Not sure about the "HD" formats.

If you're fine with 7.1 then an HTPC with a multichannel DAC will fulfill all your SINAD fantasies.

There's a lot of people out there who get much enjoyment from a simple 5.1 system. Not *that* many people run height channels I'm sure, and many people like the idea of an appliance running things, rather than a computer.

I think a high quality 7.1 pre-pro that's got excellent DAC's and sounds brilliant for music would have some legs, esp if it had good room correction and wasn't that expensive. you can still buy 7.1 pre-pro's now..
 

maverickronin

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 19, 2018
Messages
2,527
Likes
3,308
Location
Midwest, USA
There's a lot of people out there who get much enjoyment from a simple 5.1 system. Not *that* many people run height channels I'm sure, and many people like the idea of an appliance running things, rather than a computer.

I think a high quality 7.1 pre-pro that's got excellent DAC's and sounds brilliant for music would have some legs, esp if it had good room correction and wasn't that expensive. you can still buy 7.1 pre-pro's now..

I don't really disagree on the utility of such a thing but 5 and 7.1s seem either ultra-budget or ultra niche these days.
 
Top Bottom