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How Important is the DAC Chip?

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Hi guys,

Conscious of not Hijacking any more threads, I though't I'd start my own one. I am looking to buy a DAC and am considering the RME ADI-2, it seems universally recommended and comes without 'issues' like the SU-9n I currently have - had it two days, its great but I am a tad worried my new diet will last longer than 'it' will.

The reservation I have with the RME ADI-2 FS is that is uses a DAC chip made 6 plus years ago. The ESS ES9028Q2M.

Is this a problem? I have read a few times that the chip itself isn't that important, but as I have no knowledge of the mechanics and electrics involved I don't just 'believe it' without questioning it.

Thank you
 

Ken Tajalli

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Hi guys,

Conscious of not Hijacking any more threads, I though't I'd start my own one. I am looking to buy a DAC and am considering the RME ADI-2, it seems universally recommended and comes without 'issues' like the SU-9n I currently have - had it two days, its great but I am a tad worried my new diet will last longer than 'it' will.
The reservation I have with the RME ADI-2 FS is that is uses a DAC chip made 6 plus years ago. The ESS ES9028Q2M.
Is this a problem? I have read a few times that the chip itself isn't that important, but as I have no knowledge of the mechanics and electrics involved I don't just 'believe it' without questioning it.
6 years ago is no problem!
Take a look at this:
The device was mine, I sent it in for review.
- The DAC is now over 10 years old.
- The chipset used was first released in 2005!
- The op-amps used throughout were first released in the late 70s , if I recall correctly.
Just look at the measured performance!
It's not the chips, it's what they've done with them.
 

Trell

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Not all chips are paragon's of fidelity. Most are these days. The RME even with an older chip is among the most accurate available.

And has a ton of features on top of that.
 

RayDunzl

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kemmler3D

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DAC chips have been able to output audibly transparent audio for many years now. The truth is, we look for very high numbers here on ASR (100+ SINAD), but lots of stars would have to align for you to hear the difference between 85 and 120dB SINAD from a DAC. The amp usually has worse performance, and the headphones or speakers, worse still, which tends to totally swamp anything going on with the DAC.

Long story short don't worry that the chip isn't brand-new. It just means they have had time to learn to design with it properly. :)
 

Sokel

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That's a couple of AKM4396 in a 100 euro interface some 15 years ago.
Not much to see,seems like a solved issue.


index.php
 

Trell

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Here is a compiled list of DAC IC, sorted by year, going back to early 1980-ies for some types, showing THD+N and dynamic range A-wtd.


A quote from the link:

>>>There is obviously more to DAC performance than just these numbers, notably digital filter performance (many more recent DACs are not exactly pretty in terms of periodic ripple, and lots of DACs capable of 384 kHz and up essentially "cheat" by bypassing most of their digital filtering beyond 192 kHz), handling of clock jitter (some like ESS essentially have built-in ASRC), 0dBFS+ handling (anything with built-in ASRC like ESS or TI PCM179x tends to hard-clip at 0 dBFS, more traditional parts generally have about 2 dB and change of headroom), power consumption and features, but as an illustration of progress I figured this table should do.

You can see how in just 6 years, delta-sigma converter IC dynamic range increased by 20 dB, and 30 dB over a decade, absolutely massive improvements to the point where analog noise became a dominating factor. In the same decade, distortion went down by 15-17 dB as well, which if taken together with the increased demands brought about by reduced noise and inevitably limited maximum power draw must mean substantially more complex analog circuitry as well.

If you were an equipment manufacturer in the late '90s, on the one hand you'd be lucky in that you could probably present better performance figures than devices just a few years old, but on the other hand the performance of your brand spanking new model would soon be considered obsolete as well; if you're lucky, you would be able to adopt a new better replacement part. Things have not been nearly as turbulent again since the mid-2000s, although with the advent of DAC + headphone amp ICs like the CS43130/131 (DAC-only cousin: CS43198) in recent years, near-130 dB dynamic range has never been more pocket-sized or affordable.

You may have noticed that Crystal Semiconductor did not have a TOTL double speed DAC, while AKM did. We'll find sort of the reverse in the ADC world, with AKM coming out with their last TOTL single-speed ADC a few weeks after Crystal brought out their first double-speed model.

AKM in recent years seems to have been going with a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" approach, somewhat reminiscent of Burr-Brown in the early '90s. Clearly, there isn't much left for DAC performance to go at this point – dynamic range is pretty much maxed out, just distortion could still go down some more.

Note: I'm mostly listing delta-sigma DACs with built-in digital filters here, which in the beginning weren't nearly as high-end. If you wanted best dynamic range in the '90s, you'd generally come up with some contraption involving traditional multibit DACs (I have added some now) or even hybrids using a separate digital filter as it was common in the olden days. The Pacific Microsonics Model One ADC + DAC was reputed to be able to pull off <-120 dBFS of noise in loopback (D/A --> A/D), way back in the mid-late '90s. Mind you, these units sold at cost (!) for around 15 grand or something, very very advanced stuff for the day.<<<
 
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voodooless

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You can see how in just 6 years, delta-sigma converter IC dynamic range increased by 20 dB
Not the past 6 years. In 2016 we had 140 dB DNR already.
and 30 dB over a decade
Nope, in 2009 we had ES9012 with 133 dB DNR.

Same goes for THD+N: the ES9012 already did -120 Db, we're now "stuck" at -124 dB since 2019 already.

The reservation I have with the RME ADI-2 FS is that is uses a DAC chip made 6 plus years ago.
I'd me more worried about the age of your ears ;)
 

Trell

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Not the past 6 years. In 2016 we had 140 dB DNR already.

Nope, in 2009 we had ES9012 with 133 dB DNR.

Same goes for THD+N: the ES9012 already did -120 Db, we're now "stuck" at -124 dB since 2019 already.


I'd me more worried about the age of your ears ;)

That was not me writing that but a quote from the link i gave, as seen by the >>> and <<<. I've edited my post to more clearly show that it's a quote.

I don't know when the author actually wrote that.
 

voodooless

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That was not me writing that but a quote from the link i gave, as seen by the >>> and <<<. I've edited my post to more clearly show that it's a quote.
There's a nice quote button for that:
1668506650644.png

Works like a charm :)

I don't know when the author actually wrote that.
Well, he clearly didn't read his own table :facepalm:
 

Trell

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There's a nice quote button for that:
View attachment 243468



Well, he clearly didn't read his own table :facepalm:

I don't use that nice quote button for quoting articles as a reply to that post will remove the quote. I guess I can try again to see if that works.

As for him not reading his own table: Perhaps he wrote it a long time ago and has not updated as he added new DAC IC.

Edit: Quote will disappear in a reply as tested in the Test forum.
 
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xaviescacs

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It's of major importance. Without it, it doesn't work. ;) Its age? Nah, the only variable is performance, those things do not degrade with time.

Digging a bit more, many of the RME DAC features like EQ do not come from the DAC but from the DSP section. As they say, in this unit the DAC chip is not the main component.
 

AnalogSteph

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Sheesh... you can't post anything on the ol' interwebs without people trying their hardest to misinterpret it. ;)
You can see how in just 6 years, delta-sigma converter IC dynamic range increased by 20 dB, and 30 dB over a decade, absolutely massive improvements to the point where analog noise became a dominating factor.
This was clearly referring to a time in the 1990s and early 2000s, not anywhere near recent years. (1993-ish - generally high 90s; 1995-97: 105-106 dB(A); late 1998 and 1999: 116 and 120 dB(A); late 2000: first chip to hit 122 dB(A); late 2003: 127 dB(A).) The high end essentially hit "as good as it'll ever need to be" levels by 2008/9 with progress already having slowed down before that, and the years after that have mostly been about top-tier performance trickling down into the midrange and mobile audio. Even there, a lot of the action was around 2016 already. I consider everything from about 2009 onwards "modern".

RME have never been the company to throw the latest, most expensive converter chips at the problem, but what you did get would be extremely well implemented. And it's not like the ES9028Q2M would be a slouch... 129 dB(A) worth of dynamic range and a -120 dB THD+N is nothing to sneeze at. They didn't need the even lower power consumption of the ES9038Q2M, and if you can only get 123 dB(A) at once through the analog stage there's little point in pushing for more dynamic range. You can generally get a better deal on "old hat" chips, too. (MOTU were still using ES9016s from 2009 in the fairly recent past, they only switched about a year ago. And you know what codec a ton of bread and butter audio interfaces are based on? The CS4272, a literally twenty-year-old chip. Getting near-datasheet performance out of it generally has only been a thing of the last couple of years.)

The clou with the RME's output stage is offering several analog gain settings over a range of 18 dB (which can even be selected automatically depending on volume chosen), so that total, non-instantaneous dynamic range on the ADI-2 DAC FS is effectively extended by 15 dB to 138 dB(A). This gives it a great deal of flexibility that would be very hard to reach (and toasty) if you just tried to brute-force it. At the end of the day, an audio DAC just needs to clear an instantaneous 110 dB worth of dynamic range comfortably, all the rest is just for making up for gain mismatch and adapting to different equipment (you might be running a set of active monitors with a notoriously hot input, or a mixer in a studio environment). So that part is basically up to the equipment designer.

Similar concepts can be found in mobile DACs, AK4376 and AK4377 being a good modern example. High-strung DACs are a notoriously power-hungry affair (case in point, the ES9038PRO's reputation for being a toasty fella), so in this application it makes a lot of sense to contend yourself with middling DAC dynamic range and make up for it with variable analog stage gain instead, so that both high-sensitivity IEMs and line-level inputs are happy in the end.
 

voodooless

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Sheesh... you can't post anything on the ol' interwebs without people trying their hardest to misinterpret it.
Maybe add some dates to make it clearer. To me, it was quite obvious that it was talking about some earliest time. But that is not the context of this thread, is it? We’re talking about a 6 year old DAC chip, not one that is three decades old ;) It however served my purpose of showing how little happened over the last decade or so. Sorry to misrepresent your excellent story:cool:
 
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Thanks for your help and advice on this. I did buy the RME, turned up and compared best I could to the SMSL, heard no difference at all. If DAC performance vs price is all that matters then the SMSL is a gem, especially at £330 that I paid.

That said, I really, really like the RME, initial impressions only of course.
 

Trell

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Thanks for your help and advice on this. I did buy the RME, turned up and compared best I could to the SMSL, heard no difference at all. If DAC performance vs price is all that matters then the SMSL is a gem, especially at £330 that I paid.

That said, I really, really like the RME, initial impressions only of course.
With all DSP disabled on the RME you won’t hear any difference, assuming you test at the same output level.

I’ve the RME myself and bought it for its DSP.
 

Matias

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RME ADI-2 not only has great DSP but also smart volume control and excellent headphone amp. It is swiss army knife of a device, and does everything well.
 

rbg

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Just to add to the collective: I recently bought the RME and could not be happier. Did some room correction, set up loudness and — super useful abs audible. Also, remote balance is very useful in real live listening. Totally worth extra money compare to other dacs without these functions.
 
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