How important is an AVR's 'rated output' for movie watching?

[dlaloum]

Then again audible differences....

It's all pretty academic if the speaker is truly 8 ohm (or even 6 ohm) - then you can just refer to power/spl tables (or calculations) and you are gold.

But then, heaps of full range speakers have impedance in the bass that drops to 3 ohm - and let me tell you from personal experience - when the AVR runs out of current - the soundstage ends up collapsing, sounding congested... it is an ugly thing!

Then you replace that amp with one like this Quad - not overly powerful into 3 ohm - but it does the job, remains stable, and provides enough power/current even at low impedances to do a reasonable job - suddenly the midrange cleans up.

Putting something capable of 1200W@ 2 ohm on the same speakers - clears up those kind of issues altogether! - but some would view that as excess...

And if you have full range speakers, it is worth checking, as it is always surprising how many of them have impedance that drops down low on the woofer...

 

[dlaloum]

A little louder doesn't take much more "power", until it does...

For example, the back of the nakkin calculations say:

View attachment 230804

Roughly speaking - 120W is enough for 99% of cases... with the proviso that the amp can drive the equivalent voltage into 2 ohm (which means 480W @ 2ohm )

The problem is that many 120W amps struggle to drive 4 ohm with the same voltage... and their output completely collapses into 2 ohm (and sometimes, shutdown!)

 

[Chrispy]

It's all pretty academic if the speaker is truly 8 ohm (or even 6 ohm) - then you can just refer to power/spl tables (or calculations) and you are gold.

But then, heaps of full range speakers have impedance in the bass that drops to 3 ohm - and let me tell you from personal experience - when the AVR runs out of current - the soundstage ends up collapsing, sounding congested... it is an ugly thing!

Then you replace that amp with one like this Quad - not overly powerful into 3 ohm - but it does the job, remains stable, and provides enough power/current even at low impedances to do a reasonable job - suddenly the midrange cleans up.

Putting something capable of 1200W@ 2 ohm on the same speakers - clears up those kind of issues altogether! - but some would view that as excess...

And if you have full range speakers, it is worth checking, as it is always surprising how many of them have impedance that drops down low on the woofer...

Meh, haven't had such experiences in ranges of power amps like that. Then again don't have special needs speakers.

 

[RayDunzl]

Putting something capable of 1200W@ 2 ohm on the same speakers - clears up those kind of issues altogether! - but some would view that as excess...

I run 350/700/1400W 8/4/2 ohm amps on the main system.

Handy for those times you want to sip a beer and crank up the 'stats to something like live levels with Audio Buddy...

The rest of the time, the little JBL econoboxes do just fine with their watt or so consumption,

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Hmmmm. Yes that is the conventional wisdom. Actual DATA...has anyone seen any? I have seen some spectrum traces and yes there is a chunk down at the bottom. But that doesn't really matter. The PEAKS are what matter, so are there loud portions of music/film that eat up the headroom and don't contain much bass? I gotta get some kind of software for analyzing...

Well what moves more air, 30 hz or 3000hz?

Which Marantz are you referring to? One of the slim-line models for that kind of rating? I wouldn't bother with one of those except if space/room were very limited.

Not a fan of extra bass when you have capable subwoofage/speakers....as to how much amp power it saves from an avr/speaker....probably not as much as many imply.

I can't imagine not using subs (and not just one).

The NR1711 slimline 7.1 receiver

The Question "How much power" is way too single dimensional to cover what should be covered...

What impedance are the speakers you are planning on driving, what does their impedance / phase look like, and what sort of demands does it place on the power amps?

If we needed a single additional value, in addition to 8 ohm "power" - I would suggest that we need to know what the Current capabilities of the AVR power supply is...

Preferably we should see power output specifications at 8, 4 and 2 ohm (the 2 ohm value tells the available current story!)

Or even better, a graph like this should show what an amp really is capable of! :

View attachment 230799

On a chart like this one, you can see continuous as well as instantaneous (peak) power capabilities at different impedances.

You can compare it to a speaker impedance chart... and if your woofer is down at 3 ohm - you can cross compare here, and determine, what SPL's you can achieve realistically with the specific amp and your specific speakers.

With the specs as provided by both speaker manufacturers and amp/avr manufacturers today, it's a complete crap shoot - you have no idea what the speakers impedance chart looks like, and no idea what the amps are capable of.

(This chart is from a Quad 606 manual)

Yeah this is a bit too complex for my own liking and I don't understand it.

A little louder doesn't take much more "power", until it does...

For example, the back of the nakkin calculations say:

View attachment 230804

This is great because even 75 Dbs is was too loud in my books

 

[Chrispy]

The best part of the slimline avrs is an option for more power on L/R with preouts....but not my first choice but don't have such a small room/office requirement as it is best for. I'd still just rather have an avr with a better amp section, even if using external amps (and would like the option of all channels for pre-outs unlike the slimline units)

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

The best part of the slimline avrs is an option for more power on L/R with preouts....but not my first choice but don't have such a small room/office requirement as it is best for. I'd still just rather have an avr with a better amp section, even if using external amps (and would like the option of all channels for pre-outs unlike the slimline units)

Well yeah, and I would like to purchase the upcoming Denon X3800H or whatever it is with 9.4 channels (or 11.4 with preouts).. but then again I think that the Marantz NR1711 on top of the Marantz PM6007, would make for a really good Mini Hi-Fi and HT 5.1.2 set-up in the living room of an 'average enthusiast'.

The integrated amp powering the fronts which are used for music listening, or for movie watching by simply switching inputs so that the AVR's front pre-outs are feeding the amp..

It would look (and sound) great, don't you think?

 

[dlaloum]

Well what moves more air, 30 hz or 3000hz?

The NR1711 slimline 7.1 receiver

Yeah this is a bit too complex for my own liking and I don't understand it.

This is great because even 75 Dbs is was too loud in my books

So the short simple version is - if you want to save money, and seek out value amps - then you need to get into the nitty gritty of the detail.

If on the other hand you want the simplicity of an amp that should be handle whatever you throw at it...

Aim for an amp that has 120W@8ohm (continuous) and which gets close-ish to doubling down into 4 ohm - circa 200W, and then increases further into 2 ohm - lets say up to 300W@2ohm - a speaker that can do this (or better) will handle 99% of use cases with aplomb.

this is speaking as someone who like to listen at around 72db average level - with max peaks at perhaps 92db... and yet I run a 440W@8ohm amp capable of 1200W@2ohm - but yes, it did make an audible difference over my less well endowed amps even though I normally run it at around 0.5W with peaks reaching 16W....
(It came my way as a bargain.... used ... but if I had to buy new at RRP, I would aim for something a little lower - matching the spec I mentioned above, or just a little more for headroom margin)

 

[Chrispy]

Well yeah, and I would like to purchase the upcoming Denon X3800H or whatever it is with 9.4 channels (or 11.4 with preouts).. but then again I think that the Marantz NR1711 on top of the Marantz PM6007, would make for a really good Mini Hi-Fi and HT 5.1.2 set-up in the living room of an 'average enthusiast'.

The integrated amp powering the fronts which are used for music listening, or for movie watching by simply switching inputs so that the AVR's front pre-outs are feeding the amp..

It would look (and sound) great, don't you think?

Why combine a mediocre integrated amp into the mix? What would that help out with? Maybe a very powerful power amp if you really need it at your desired levels at the distances you are from the speakers.... try this http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[Chrispy]

Well yeah, and I would like to purchase the upcoming Denon X3800H or whatever it is with 9.4 channels (or 11.4 with preouts).. but then again I think that the Marantz NR1711 on top of the Marantz PM6007, would make for a really good Mini Hi-Fi and HT 5.1.2 set-up in the living room of an 'average enthusiast'.

The integrated amp powering the fronts which are used for music listening, or for movie watching by simply switching inputs so that the AVR's front pre-outs are feeding the amp..

It would look (and sound) great, don't you think?

Saw this a bit later....I'd still rather have the X3800 or equivalents than the slimlines, which are not on the same level in a few ways. Depends on what you want to do, your budget, etc, but the slimlines never appealed to me at all.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

So the short simple version is - if you want to save money, and seek out value amps - then you need to get into the nitty gritty of the detail.

If on the other hand you want the simplicity of an amp that should be handle whatever you throw at it...

Aim for an amp that has 120W@8ohm (continuous) and which gets close-ish to doubling down into 4 ohm - circa 200W, and then increases further into 2 ohm - lets say up to 300W@2ohm - a speaker that can do this (or better) will handle 99% of use cases with aplomb.

this is speaking as someone who like to listen at around 72db average level - with max peaks at perhaps 92db... and yet I run a 440W@8ohm amp capable of 1200W@2ohm - but yes, it did make an audible difference over my less well endowed amps even though I normally run it at around 0.5W with peaks reaching 16W....
(It came my way as a bargain.... used ... but if I had to buy new at RRP, I would aim for something a little lower - matching the spec I mentioned above, or just a little more for headroom margin)

I'd paid $950 for my V6A (which now retails for $1200 minimum for whatever reason), so trust me, I am all about that value for money - since this amplifier has it.

Sure the testing on ASR makes it look mediocre, but it really is great for what it costs.

Why combine a mediocre integrated amp into the mix? What would that help out with? Maybe a very powerful power amp if you really need it at your desired levels at the distances you are from the speakers.... try this http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

What makes you say that it's mediocre? Due to the rated power output?

Saw this a bit later....I'd still rather have the X3800 or equivalents than the slimlines, which are not on the same level in a few ways. Depends on what you want to do, your budget, etc, but the slimlines never appealed to me at all.

Well of course you'd rather have the new and upcoming X3800H - it sounds like it's going to be spectacular.

Well somebody who is into aesthetics and style would probably want to purchase those two and use them the way I'd specified with some Wharfedale Evo, or whatever - why? Well because I like to think that I have style and those amps and speakers would look good and sleep in a modern living room that looks 'cool' - that's what some 'cool' and 'trendy' person who is into the audiophile space would want, IMO.

 

[Chrispy]

I'd paid $950 for my V6A (which now retails for $1200 minimum for whatever reason), so trust me, I am all about that value for money - since this amplifier has it.

Sure the testing on ASR makes it look mediocre, but it really is great for what it costs.

What makes you say that it's mediocre? Due to the rated power output?


Well of course you'd rather have the new and upcoming X3800H - it sounds like it's going to be spectacular.

Well somebody who is into aesthetics and style would probably want to purchase those two and use them the way I'd specified with some Wharfedale Evo, or whatever - why? Well because I like to think that I have style and those amps and speakers would look good and sleep in a modern living room that looks 'cool'.

Combining two integrated amps (an avr is one with an extra feature) is a waste of features....you need perhaps a power amp....then use such.....

ps yes, many integrated amps today are of limited value....wouldn't buy one myself.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Combining two integrated amps (an avr is one with an extra feature) is a waste of features....you need perhaps a power amp....then use such.....

Well that's what you think - you can decorate and accessorize your living room as you damn well please.

 

[Chrispy]

Well that's what you think - you can decorate and accessorize your living room as you damn well please.

I already have, have no limitations based on your expectations nor your wife's/mother's etc.

 

[dlaloum]

I'd paid $950 for my V6A (which now retails for $1200 minimum for whatever reason), so trust me, I am all about that value for money - since this amplifier has it.

Sure the testing on ASR makes it look mediocre, but it really is great for what it costs.

What makes you say that it's mediocre? Due to the rated power output?

SINAD on the analogue I/O was not stellar circa 70db...

On the other hand the threshold for audibility is around 60db...

So yeah - it ain't state of the art, but it is still capable of good performance - it's a budget AVR, performing well for its category.

When comparing it to other AVR's on the SINAD charts, some of the AVR's it is competing with cost 3x or more the price... it is decently powered, and is good value.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I already have, have no limitations based on your expectations nor your wife's/mother's etc.

So have I - I just use my integrated amplifier to listen to apple music via Topping D10S - then when i wish to watch a movie I switch the input to my AVR's pre-outs.

Do I need it? No, not really - the V6A has all the features that the Integrated amp does, i just thought it would be cool to do, since integrated amps are (supposedly) better for music listening - much better soundstage, etc.

SINAD on the analogue I/O was not stellar circa 70db...

On the other hand the threshold for audibility is around 60db...

So yeah - it ain't state of the art, but it is still capable of good performance - it's a budget AVR, performing well for its category.

When comparing it to other AVR's on the SINAD charts, some of the AVR's it is competing with cost 3x or more the price... it is decently powered, and is good value.

Of course it's good for the money, anything else that's substantially better would cost 3 times as much in OZ and the MusicCast is a much better alternative to HEOS which is what you'd get with the Denon.

MusicCast is actually really good for what it is, although it doesn't have tidal connect or high res streaming - spotify, even without premium sounds completely fine on it.

 

[Chrispy]

So have I - I just use my integrated amplifier to listen to apple music via Topping D10S - then when i wish to watch a movie I switch the input to my AVR's pre-outs.

Do I need it? No, not really - the V6A has all the features that the Integrated amp does, i just thought it would be cool to do, since integrated amps are (supposedly) better for music listening - much better soundstage, etc.



Of course it's good for the money, anything else that's substantially better would cost 3 times as much in OZ and the MusicCast is a much better alternative to HEOS which is what you'd get with the Denon.

Then perhaps duplication of gear works for you....it generally would be a waste in my world. No particular sonic advantage to an integrated amp at all except in the minds of "audiophiles" for the most part.

 

[dlaloum]

So have I - I just use my integrated amplifier to listen to apple music via Topping D10S - then when i wish to watch a movie I switch the input to my AVR's pre-outs.

Do I need it? No, not really - the V6A has all the features that the Integrated amp does, i just thought it would be cool to do, since integrated amps are (supposedly) better for music listening - much better soundstage, etc.



Of course it's good for the money, anything else that's substantially better would cost 3 times as much in OZ and the MusicCast is a much better alternative to HEOS which is what you'd get with the Denon.

Pricing in Oz is always painful...

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

Then perhaps duplication of gear works for you....it generally would be a waste in my world. No particular sonic advantage to an integrated amp at all except in the minds of "audiophiles" for the most part.

Well let me be the first of those 'audiophiles' to say that my Cambridge Audio Azur 550A's audio quality is substantially better than the V6A's.

Might be placebo, but I got it used off of the classifieds - even though it's 10 years old, it looks very modern.

I even once opened it to inspect it and was pleasantly surprised that there was no rust or anything - though the smoothing caps should be changed.

I mean for one thing the V6A's headphone port is a joke, especially compared to the integrated amplifier's one, which I have reason to believe is powered by its own amplifier, not just resistors off of the main amp.

Pricing in Oz is always painful...

Uhmmmm.. yeah.

$950 for a brand new V6A is a bargain, no questions asked.

 

[dlaloum]

Then perhaps duplication of gear works for you....it generally would be a waste in my world. No particular sonic advantage to an integrated amp at all except in the minds of "audiophiles" for the most part.

Well, sort of - it could be argued that potentially, spending the price of the integrated to move to a more upmarket AVR, might achieve the goal of maintaining the sound quality for stereo, while also having the benefit of a more streamlined interface, and the many features of an AVR...

But getting the high THD and S/N that a typical integrated achieves, out of an AVR, is always challenging - and often costs more than one would think.

I was happy with the Flagship models from Onkyo from 2008 to circa 2013 - using the SPDIF inputs - their HDMI inputs weren't so great

Current models have reversed the trend, with HDMI often being better than SPDIF

But those Flagship models were far more than the price of a seperate integrated.