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How important is an AVR's 'rated output' for movie watching?

Chrispy

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Well let me be the first of those 'audiophiles' to say that my Cambridge Audio Azur 550A's audio quality is substantially better than the V6A's.

Might be placebo, but I got it used off of the classifieds - even though it's 10 years old, it looks very modern.

I even once opened it to inspect it and was pleasantly surprised that there was no rust or anything - though the smoothing caps should be changed.

I mean for one thing the V6A's headphone port is a joke, especially compared to the amplifiers one, which I have reason to believe is powered by its own amplifier, not just resistors off of the main amp.

Uhmmmm.. yeah.

$950 for a brand new V6A is a bargain, no questions asked.
Meh, have separates from the old days that exceeded any "integrated" amp and never saw the value of an integrated amp outside of the convenience of receivers (which are just a form of integrated amp). Avrs can be quite feature rich in any case especially in comparison to limited 2ch gear.
 

Chrispy

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Well, sort of - it could be argued that potentially, spending the price of the integrated to move to a more upmarket AVR, might achieve the goal of maintaining the sound quality for stereo, while also having the benefit of a more streamlined interface, and the many features of an AVR...

But getting the high THD and S/N that a typical integrated achieves, out of an AVR, is always challenging - and often costs more than one would think.

I was happy with the Flagship models from Onkyo from 2008 to circa 2013 - using the SPDIF inputs - their HDMI inputs weren't so great

Current models have reversed the trend, with HDMI often being better than SPDIF

But those Flagship models were far more than the price of a seperate integrated.
You want high thd and snr in your integrateds? That's kinda weird.
 
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Well, sort of - it could be argued that potentially, spending the price of the integrated to move to a more upmarket AVR, might achieve the goal of maintaining the sound quality for stereo, while also having the benefit of a more streamlined interface, and the many features of an AVR...

But getting the high THD and S/N that a typical integrated achieves, out of an AVR, is always challenging - and often costs more than one would think.

I was happy with the Flagship models from Onkyo from 2008 to circa 2013 - using the SPDIF inputs - their HDMI inputs weren't so great

Current models have reversed the trend, with HDMI often being better than SPDIF

But those Flagship models were far more than the price of a seperate integrated.
The thing that I like about the CA Azur 550A is that it has no dac or any internal components or electronics, so that it gives a cleaner signal.

I can choose the DAC and upgrade it appropriately, since technology in this context has improved in the last 10 years - but in terms of how an A/B Amplifier works? It's stayed the same.

Meh, have separates from the old days that exceeded any "integrated" amp and never saw the value of an integrated amp outside of the convenience of receivers (which are just a form of integrated amp). Avrs can be quite feature rich in any case especially in comparison to limited 2ch gear.
The argument that people make is that AVRS have way more components that can colour the signal, compared to a 2 channel amp.
 

Chrispy

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That'
The thing that I like about the CA Azur 550A is that it has no da or any internal components or electronics, so that it gives a cleaner signal.

I can choose the DAC and upgrade it appropriately, since technology in this context has improved in the last 10 years - but in terms of how an A/B Amplifier works? It's stayed the same.


The argument that people make is that AVRS have way more components that can colour the signal, compared to a 2 channel amp.
Sounds more like your imagination on how things work.
 
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Well audio science relies on more than one guy's opinion, eh?
Once again, you can think as you please - if I had not purchased the integrated amp, I'd probably agree, since then I'd have no skin in the game.

BRB listening to some room-corrected high-res audio tunes from my MacBook Pro, via a D10S and CA Azur 550A integrated amplifier.
 

Head_Unit

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Well what moves more air, 30 hz or 3000hz?
That's a different thing, related to the SPL at each frequency. Yes there is definitely a chunk of power down in the subwoofer range, so if you filter that out with a highpass filter less power will reach the satellite speakers. However that is on average. IF you had musical crescendos that did not happen to include much bass, your main amp would still clip pretty much as often as before. Now do crescendos ever happen without low bass content? I don't know, I've never seen that
 
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That's a different thing, related to the SPL at each frequency. Yes there is definitely a chunk of power down in the subwoofer range, so if you filter that out with a highpass filter less power will reach the satellite speakers. However that is on average. IF you had musical crescendos that did not happen to include much bass, your main amp would still clip pretty much as often as before. Now do crescendos ever happen without low bass content? I don't know, I've never seen that
Yeah listen here mister, i'm no rocket scientist, but alls i know is that pumping 20 watts of juice into a full range driver at 60 hz is not going to sound as loud to the human ear as pumping 20 watts at 6000 Hz into that same speaker.
 

Head_Unit

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Yeah listen here mister, i'm no rocket scientist, but alls i know is that pumping 20 watts of juice into a full range driver at 60 hz is not going to sound as loud to the human ear as pumping 20 watts at 6000 Hz into that same speaker.
That is totally correct, known as Fletcher-Munson. But that's a different thing, so I'm confused. Your post I replied to was (rephrasing) how much power load was removed from the AVR by adding a subwoofer and highpassing the satellites. What I am saying is that yes some continuous power load is removed, but it is not clear if the peak power load is really reduced. I've never seen data about that, though it could be generated with the right software. It's the peak power that clips the amps.
 

Head_Unit

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The argument that people make is that AVRS have way more components that can colour the signal, compared to a 2 channel amp.
...and the counter-argument is that 2-channel amps rarely have proper bass management or room correction, without which your bass in normal rooms is unlikely to be flat. Hopefully more 2-channel products will incorporate these.

Also while on the bench some 2-channel equipment has specs exceeding the best AVRs, it seems debatable if that is really audible. The Denon AVR-1612 I had, and AVR-X3600H, didn't sound colored. The -1612 in particular sounded like nothing at all to me. The -3600 was replaced by an additional $6000 of Anthem AVM 70 + ATI 525NC and that does NOT sound less colored...the image is different, likely due to room correction differences, but both sounded great. Hence in that experience it's more about how much power one needs.
 

peng

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The thing that I like about the CA Azur 550A is that it has no dac or any internal components or electronics, so that it gives a cleaner signal.

I can choose the DAC and upgrade it appropriately, since technology in this context has improved in the last 10 years - but in terms of how an A/B Amplifier works? It's stayed the same.


The argument that people make is that AVRS have way more components that can colour the signal, compared to a 2 channel amp.

Cleaner signal than what and how do you measure "clean"? Wouldn't clean imply low distortions and noise?

According to specs, and/or measurements:

Azur 550A:

0.05% 20-20 kHz, at 80% rated output, ie 48 W
0.02% at 10 W

AVR-X4700H:

0.005% 20-20 kHz

Measurements:

0.0022% at 80% rated output
0.0025% at 20% rated output

I have compared my Cambridge Audio preamp that has lower distortions than the integrated amps, with an AVR-X3400H, heard no difference, took some measurements with REW the found there is no difference in frequency response either.

If an AVR, such as those measured by Amir colors the sound it would have been shown in his measurements. So far I don't recall seeing any of the Denon, Marantz, or Yamaha's would color the sound to the point it would be easily identified audibly.
 

techsamurai

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Here is an example video that really drove home the point for me.


Amazing video - I wish they'd tried rock and 2 channel movies.

Does anyone have level meters so we can some tests? The Technics Su-R1000 has meters that go to 300 watts.

It's funny how I would also play that type of music to test the speaker's ability to handle speed and loudness. Here are some songs I liked to use:

DJ Tiesto feat BT - Loves Comes Again
Towards the end, there's a cacophony of distorted sound when suddenly it switches to a bass note. Blast it.

U96 - Das Boot DJ Mellow Mix
Blast at floor shaking levels starting at minute 6:00 (you'll know what part of the song I'm talking)

Kitaro - Mangekyou
Positive proof that aliens exist and they are on earth. That song was not created by a human.
 

techsamurai

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What about games? They are never discussed but they are the ultimate surround and Atmos experiences as they are not pre-mixed and sound editing is not really a concern of the game designer to ensure that you're not drowned in sound. In a game you can take a rifle grenade head-on while a tank is firing its cannon 2 feet away from you while all the battlefield sounds are coming at you from left and right with more sounds than the movie Midway ever had in its busiest scenes.

Games are also playing music all the time while they are doing that which movies don't always do.

From my personal experience in my 15 years with my current AVR and speakers and 5 with another, the only time my AVR did a funky thing was while playing Dragon Age Inquisition and I knew that game was a test of my AVR - there was some magical spell attack that would overwhelm the system upon explosion. It played fine 5,000 times but I suspect it played several at the same time in a boss fight and the AVR did some weird thing and I had to reset it after giving it a moment.
 
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